“Transmen Are Still Women” — part 2 of The Pretenders — Defining Lesbians Out of Existence

Defining Lesbians Out of Existence


Better to Be Anything than a Lesbian:

“Transmen” Are Still Women

Shouldn’t anyone be able to do what they want? Too many women seem to have lost touch with reality in this liberal/right wing era of “You create your own reality.” That dangerous philosophy has been used against victims, whether those who get cancer to those who are raped. But carrying it to the extent of believing someone has the power to fundamentally change who they are rather than changing the system that oppresses us is taking it to a terrible new extreme.

If I insist that I am a different race or species other than who I truly am, would you accept me as that? Should you? Well, no, not if anyone is being hurt by that delusion.

How many Lesbians who would never accept someone saying they have changed their race or species, believe that sex change is possible? Why that difference, other than that being female counts for very little in patriarchy and the general attitude is that we are possessions of males and patriarchy?

It’s interesting that until they have been brainwashed and bullied into accepting the cult line, most women’s first reaction to a man saying he’s a woman, or a woman saying she’s a man, is refusal to buy the lie. Being able to change sex is very much the story of The Emperor’s New Clothes. It’s a mass delusion. (Some MTF trans-activists are aware of this and so make up elaborate pseudo-scientific explanations that they are actually intersex, but true intersex people are a small minority and also are furious at MTFs, want no contact, and work to expose their lies.)

If patriarchy can’t kill us outright, then they co-opt and confuse us. They make us want to become our own enemy. Female-hatred and Lesbian-hatred lead many women to think that trying to change gender will be the easier way out. Or, as a woman in a documentary said about why she wanted to become a man, “It’s better than being an old woman.”

Notice that this individual didn’t even bother with the “I always felt like a boy” crap. It was clearly a cold, calculating decision based on measuring privilege gained versus oppression lost.

Many FTMs use the same bullying tactics as MTFs, but I will not use male pronouns for them any more than I will use our pronouns for men — just as I would not agree to mass hallucinations and demands that we call men “birds” or “lizards.” It’s wrong and, basically, it’s ridiculous.  (And yes, some people do pay for extensive plastic surgery to look like other animals.)

It’s an honor to be called female. I will not insult FTMs with male pronouns. Males as a group are our enemy in this patriarchy, and I am not ready to call these women my enemy.  l feel a huge difference with them compared to how I feel with MTFs. They are still women, no matter how they alter themselves. Everything about them still appears female to me, in spite of their exterior — which says to me how different they are from men claiming to be women, because MTFs feel far more male to me than many het men do. There is something much deeper than hormones going on. MTFs are as narcissistic, predatory, and nasty as the worst men. I have never seen women groping women in public and refusing to take “no” for an answer the way I have seen MTFs.  FTMs are still female. Nothing can change that.

FTMs are self-hating females who mistakenly think they are rare in hating or feeling uncomfortable in their female bodies. Who wouldn’t, after being exposed to the horrific grotesque media images of objectified, pornified plastic women from when we are born, as well as all of us suffering some form of sexual assault?

I have known so many Lesbians who committed suicide because of oppression. “Transitioning” feels like a variation on suicide, except for the increased privilege. But already some have had regrets. Some are wanting to come back to being accepted as women and back into the Lesbian community. For all the misogynist propaganda in patriarchy, some of these women are realizing what many of us have known all along: There is nothing better than being a female.  And certainly nothing better than being a Lesbian.

But until they do return to us, FTMs are betraying us. We are not afraid of them, we are not “phobic” about them – they oppress us. And we have the right to fight that. It’s like arguing with a religious fanatic – no thinking allowed. Of course you are not allowed to say any of this without punishment.

Some FTMs do seem like men in one way, though, which is when they don’t take “no” for an answer. Many Lesbians want female-only (Lesbian-only even better) space, without castrated men, or women who call themselves men or bois or any of the bizarre variations they come up with. FTMs still assume and demand that they have access to the Lesbian communities they betrayed.

I Love Lesbians

 I’m proud to be a Lesbian. I have never wanted to be anything else. That’s why I’ve been surprised and upset by the increasing number of Lesbians who are deciding to become “men” or believe that they already are “men.” A lot clearly are simply trying to avoid oppression or want male privilege. One FTM said for her reasons for “transitioning” were, “I want more chicks and better jobs.”

When it’s that shallow, it can be easier to not care about them. But some of these women claiming to be men have heart-wrenching stories that can convince all but the most politically aware. So what’s wrong with someone doing what she wants to do with her life and body? Well, that is the liberal erosion of politics and community that makes everything all right. Where do you draw the line?

For me, it’s the point at which they undermine and hurt those I love. I love Lesbians. Lesbians are my people, my heart and soul. And we are an oppressed people. It seems like almost everyone in the world demands our love, support, time, energy, money, etc., even though, as a people, we are an oppressed group with less access to resources than men or anyone connected to men with their higher incomes and privilege. Part of what I love about Lesbians is our open hearts and generosity. But when Lesbians help non-Lesbians to our detriment, I have to protest.

We have almost no female-only space left, and we have had very little Lesbian-only space. It should be the right of all oppressed people to be with our own away from those who oppress us, don’t understand us, objectify us, use us. When we had a lot of female-only space in the Seventies, that was the time when we had a vibrant, creative Lesbian community and we felt at home at last. No more leering men harassing or threatening us. Our own space is crucial for many reasons.

But the goal of the liberal and reactionary politics of the trans movement is to destroy female-only space and Lesbian community. MTFs want what we have and want access to us, as most men do, and in the process they destroy what little we have.

If FTMs want to no longer be us, then why do they demand access to our rare space, trying to destroy it?  Why do they still want what they had as women, while insisting they are men? Why do they participate in supporting the ridiculous and insulting term “cis” and the other co-opting techniques that MTFs use to harm us. Why don’t they just leave us the fuck alone?

I think it’s because they don’t get what they want, from love to acceptance to community, from men and het women. Never being able to really be what a man is, they mostly are not treated as real men. And then there’s the narcissism factor, which permeates the trans movement. It seems to be all about their performance, their being on show. “Look at me!” is not the same without an audience. They are just one more balding, hairy man, though usually quite short and often with warbly voices. They are not trendy and seemingly the center of attention, unlike at a Lesbian event where they can posture and pose with their shirts off. The young ones, who appear to some as trendy at first, seem to age quickly beyond their years. And, of course, they are missing what real men value the most, no matter how much money they spend and how much inadequate surgery they get. Most of becoming an FTM seems to be about being trendy, cool, and cultish. And this cult is based on the worship of maleness.

That gets back to the mystery for me. Why on earth would anyone want to identify as or become a man?  Men, as a group, are the nasty cruel people who molest and sexually assault most girls and women, as well as torture and kill animals for fun. As a group, men are destroying the world. They build their weapons to look like their ugly pricks. They pollute and contaminate the earth, air, and water to mark their territory. In spite of the intense patriarchal media propaganda, even many men think their pricks are “disgusting.”1 I have yet to hear of a girl or woman who thought they were lovely on first viewing. (Yes, some later learn to love them as women also learn to love being tortured for pleasure, but really, that is part of the cult of male worship and is not innate, natural, or understandable.)

So there is what men do, and then there is what men are. None of a female wanting to be male makes sense if it wasn’t for wanting as much privilege as possible — or to be safer from sexual assault by men.

I do understand wanting to escape how badly females are treated in patriarchy. Of course, any female in her right mind would not want to grow up with the oppression girls get and would want access to the many privileges that boys and men are given. I certainly hated all the ways I was victimized for being a girl. But I never wanted to be a boy. Boys were those nasty, cruel small men who were obscene, tormented girls, and tortured animals. I loved other girls and they were my community.

Finding Lesbian Feminism made all the difference for me when I was a teenager. So I still do not comprehend why any female would so love males and maleness that she wants to become one – not that she can. I mean, really, it has to be clear to everyone that, aside from superficial appearances, no one can change sex any more than they can change species. And certainly the surgery that women get to become male doesn’t even come close to working. It’s all a big con, in which the big pharmaceutical industry, doctors, hospitals, psychiatrists, and then the patriarchal news media is making a fortune, once again on the bodies of women. For the women who try this, the cancer rate and other damaging health effects will be astronomical. (This is often what happens when women hand themselves over to male doctors for unnecessary plastic surgery.) But the real harm is to our women’s communities where the “new men” still demand entrance to women only space, while being contemptuous of us for still being women. New cliques have been created of FTM trannies and their admiring followers. But worse than that, young girls are now being pressured by their families, psychologists, and even governments into having surgery and hormones, affecting them irreparably. And it’s more than losing breasts or growing hair –their endrocrine system is damaged, and their facial and other bone structure is changed permanently.

One FTM told me she didn’t want to be a woman because she didn’t want to be raped any more. She’d had enough. She was trying to change the definition – the reality — of maleness by declaring she would be a different kind of man. I asked her, “Isn’t that going to trick women into trusting men when it’s not safe to?” She didn’t know how to answer. Should we then become fundamentalist christians, or nazi or klan members to give the world nice versions of dangerous bigots? Trying to become your enemy is no answer or solution for gynocide or genocide. That doesn’t stop evil. And it doesn’t make sense. It’s the philosophy of a cult member.

Who Would Want to Be an Oppressed Person If They Had a Choice?

I don’t believe any woman would even consider wanting to become a man if it wasn’t for patriarchy’s war on all females, where very few escape sexual assault in girlhood or later as adults.

If you can ignore the self-hatred involved, it could be tempting to want to become your oppressor rather than be oppressed. But then you would also have to be hateful towards others who share your oppression, breaking solidarity and community. That is how patriarchy in its most horrible forms does work. That’s where people betray themselves and those who share their oppression on behalf of their enemy. That is how resistance movements are crushed and cultures destroyed.

Through media propaganda, oppressed people are taught to despise themselves and value/admire/emulate qualities of their oppressor. This was once common knowledge among many people, including Lesbian Feminists. Patriarchy is full of images of people selling themselves out to be trendy and popular, and to simply fit in and feel “normal.” Even in oppressed communities, anyone who looks more natural gets harassed and told they are ugly and wrong, and how they should change themselves, although doing that makes them look unnatural and injures their health. (Michael Jackson is one example of the extremes an oppressed person will go to in order to stop being subjected to racism.) This self-help solution to oppression also creates multi-billion dollar businesses. In the Sixties and Seventies, there was more pride for oppressed people, just as there was more pride for Lesbians of all backgrounds to be out and look like Lesbians. But these are reactionary times. And those who don’t know their own history are condemned to repeat it.

One of the main tricks of the trans movement and their supporters is to present trannies as more oppressed than anyone else could possibly know or be. Suddenly, men who grew up with all the privilege of het men, many with salaries far higher than most women can get, and married for decades with children — as connected to the power structure as possible — are said to be far more oppressed than any Lesbian. Similarly, FTMs who grew up fitting in as “normal” girls and who did not feel like freaks, who were “feminine” in male-defined terms and/or who were acceptably het, are said to be far more oppressed than lifelong or Never-het Lesbians or Butches.

Recently, I was at a Lesbian brunch where I was told that I had no idea what it was like to grow up knowing I was different and never, ever feeling I fit in. This Lesbian was lecturing me on how much more oppressed FTMs are than I could possibly imagine, yet she herself was extremely feminine and no one seeing her would dream she was a Lesbian except that she was at this Lesbian event. She was giving me the cult line while completely ignoring who I am. She was objectifying me because anyone who looks at me can tell immediately that I had never fit in as a “normal,” proper feminine girl. I look like an obvious Dyke and I have always felt like an outsider because I hated and rejected male-identified “femininity.” I am a lifelong Lesbian and Butch. I had no politics or words for how I felt growing up – not one book or film that showed Lesbians in anything other than the most horrible, degrading, terrifying stereotypes. You certainly couldn’t turn on the television like now, and see much-loved public Lesbians. It was uncomfortable and humiliating when I was forced to wear dresses or skirts and look the unnatural ways it was demanded that girls look. This was a case, at that brunch, of a more privileged Lesbian oppressing a less privileged Lesbian on behalf of FTMs who had betrayed us both.

Further proof that transsexualism is more privileged than being Lesbian or even gay men is that it is welcomed and encouraged in such a religious fundamentalist country as Iran, where being a Lesbian or gay man is a crime punished by death.  The method of eliminating all Lesbians and gay men in Iran is to force them to change their sex (or to appear to.)  More sex change surgeries are performed in Iran than any country other than Thailand, and they are actually paid for by the government.

The fact that transsexualism is so welcomed by such a religious country that is so incredibly destructive to Lesbians, does make me think that some US government funding and support is being given to the trans movement. This certainly wouldn’t be the first time that the US government deliberately tried to destroy and co-opt radical movements.2

  Why Would Any Girl Want to Be a Girl in Patriarchy?

I hated femininity as a girl. I had no Feminist politics and awareness, but I hated everything my family, school, and church pushed on me that was supposed to be for girls. I hated being humiliated by boys when they pushed me down at school to look at my underwear. I hated that they could have their shirts off in the summer while I was verbally assaulted by a boy when I was 4 because I dared to be outside with my shirt off. Our chests looked the same, but he humiliated me anyway, to teach me that girls weren’t allowed to be as free as boys. I hated dolls and being told I would have to marry a man and have babies. (I got my mother to shut up by threatening to become a nun.) I hated when my mother put my hair in curlers, which made trying to sleep painful, and put me in shoes that hurt, and sent me to school in a dress that was indecent for a little girl.

But I also loved girls and NEVER wanted to be a boy. I didn’t hate being a girl – I hated male-defined femininity. I hated the humiliation that came with being a girl and how constrained we were. I hated most boys and men for their cruelty, except for my father. Adult male relatives and neighbors were often prurient, drunk, and violent. I can remember how my friends were afraid of their fathers, and one friend obviously was being sexually assaulted by her brothers. (This wasn’t an unusually dangerous place – this was a “nice” working class neighborhood with tract houses in a Midwestern suburb.)  So I don’t understand any female wanting to become one of them. Why? As I said, it makes as much sense to me as a Lesbian wanting to join the klan or another openly evil organization. Where is their loyalty to girls, women, and Lesbians?

But of course a dramatic change in privilege is attractive. A friend told me how happy her ex was, now that she had become a man, but, really, who wouldn’t feel better with such a massive increase in privilege? At a reading for her book, “Body Alchemy,” FTM Loren Cameron described how, as what appeared to be a working class older man, she was treated with respect by the female and gay male staff of a San Francisco clothing store – but when an obvious Butch came into the store, all the staff ridiculed her. And, of course, as we age, old men get far more respect and privilege than old women.

In a documentary, a Lesbian described how much better her life was as a man. She was more accepted at work and by her lover’s family. Her lover’s father said how angry he’d been that his daughter was a Lesbian, but now his daughter was “normal” because her lover had become a “man.”  As he said, “It’s better than being a Lesbian.”

But what is the most disturbing is that young girls are being pressured to become transsexuals. I saw a documentary in England about girls who didn’t want the male-defined feminine role that patriarchy insists we conform to. The girls liked the comfortable and more protective clothes made for boys instead of skirts and dresses, and they liked doing the active things that boys are allowed to do rather than playing with make-up and hair styles, posing, and flirting with boys.  Instead of understanding that being naturally female includes liking to do things considered male, and that femininity in patriarchal cultures is actually a male invention, the girls were encouraged to believe that they were really males inside of females’ bodies. One of the English girls went with her family to Amsterdam to enroll in the Dutch transsexual program so she could begin treatment, which included a hysterectomy, a double mastectomy, surgery to alter her vulva, and daily injections of testosterone – all before she reached puberty.   Nothing was said about what if these girls changed their minds later. And not once was the word “Lesbian” ever mentioned as a possible alternative to explain their feelings. No other explanations were suggested either – not even basic Feminist ideas about gender equality.

Around the same time, a friend sent me a taping of a U.S. radio program in which a mother described her little girl wishing she were a boy from the age of three. Again, everything the girl said about why she wanted to be accepted as a boy made sense in the context of male privilege. She’d been disappointed when her grandmother gave her a frilly dress for her birthday, so she asked her mother, “Why don’t you tell grandma I’m not the kind of girl who wears dresses?”  When that didn’t work, she tried, “Why don’t you tell her I’m a boy?” When the girl was six, her mother told her she couldn’t be a boy since she didn’t have a penis, so she said she wanted one. If the conversation had ended there, that would have been used by the transsexual lobby as proof that the girl truly wanted to be male. But when her mother explained to her what a penis was, the girl said she didn’t want one. Still, her mother, who seemed unusually aware and caring, explained to the interviewer how she’d accepted, with “professional” help, that her daughter was a transsexual and would have to face surgery, testosterone injections, etc.  Again, not once was gender equality or the word “Lesbian” mentioned.

I don’t know why I’m surprised that many hets would prefer that girls mutilate themselves and damage their health rather than become Lesbians. But why is this also happening among Lesbians?

Wiping out females certainly seems to be the goal of the trans movement. FTMs and their Lesbian-hating supporters are trying to appropriate every female who fought against male oppression, from Teena Brandon to Joan of Arc. I saw from the beginning that the trans movement used Teena Brandon, like they do so much else. Teenaged Teena Brandon was a young Butch in a terrible situation in a small town in Nebraska who changed her name to Brandon Teena so she could pass as male to survive and to be able to love other women — as so many women have done throughout history. When she was found out, a group of men raped and murdered her. The only quote I’ve read by an actual friend of hers described her as a “Lesbian.” The interviews I saw with her friend and mother also showed clearly that she identified as a Lesbian, not as a man. But everything I’ve read and heard since in the gay/queer and mainstream media describes her as a “Female to Male Transsexual.” Transsexuals simply have stolen her for their own use and are again re-writing our Lesbian history. I wish she could speak for herself.

Liars know that if you say a lie often enough, it’s believed. The right wing, from Josef Goebbels to Karl Rove, used this tactic successfully.

What those who push transsexual politics forget is that many of us know what most males are and hate them as a group for their violence and raping. Many females have passed as male to survive, and they’re more likely to know about how disgusting males can be and so would never want to actually identify as one permanently. But then many, if not most, FTMs grew up obeying the male rule of femininity.

Self-betrayal for Privilege

Some females take the privileged way out by choosing to be with men while others choose to be with females but identify as “men.” I believe both those choices mean self-betrayal and betrayal of other females.

Too many females believe the simplistic lies we are told that keep patriarchy and heterosexuality going – such as that we’re all supposed to be heterosexual. But I don’t believe any female is naturally heterosexual. If we were, why are we so relentlessly pressured to believe what is an obvious lie? Again, this mass delusion acts like a cult where you are not to dare question it – or if you do, you will be severely punished.

The patriarchal power structure and every individual male benefits by females choosing to be het. Even gay men benefit from the het patriarchal power structure that’s based on keeping women in a subservient position and which gives higher wages and other privileges to men.

We’ve had heterosexuality shoved down our throats as soon as we were born — from the media to families to schools to religion – but that doesn’t make it true. Look at what else they lie to us about. How many know the real story about “the birds and the bees?” Their euphemism for human reproduction is a lie. You are unlikely to ever see a heterosexual or even male honeybee. Honeybees have an almost all-female society in which the “queen” only creates a tiny amount of males when starting a new hive and those males live for just a day. The “queen” has only one het experience, from which she produces her multitude of Never-het daughters. Ants are bee relatives (Hymenoptera) who also are almost all female. You might occasionally see a winged male ant, but he doesn’t live long, and the rest are all female. True sisterhoods, ants and bees give their lives for each other and feed each other intimately from their mouths. Yet children are indoctrinated with animated movies about male bees and ants. Was it a coincidence that one of the most popular of these movies had the main character voiced by a famous child molester?

Finding the truth in the maze of lies makes it much harder to not internalize the Lesbian-hating that they teach us. Many species of animals live in female communities and they know to keep out the males because the male are rapists and murderers of the babies.

If you ever doubt how patriarchy has invaded almost every woman’s mind, notice how most women refer to animals they don’t know as “he.” Some even call obviously female animals “he.” Making maleness the norm reflects deep acceptance of male rule and lies, including the inferiority of females. Real Feminists stop participating in this. It also reflects how few women question or are even aware of patriarchal mind control.

Het brainwashing is also the norm. I saw my friends in high school working very hard to make themselves feel attracted to boys. It didn’t come naturally, like their attractions to girls did. Of course most women today say they love being het, but notice how focused the media is on training all females what to feel so they can fit in. Just a few decades ago, it was common knowledge that most women made a reluctant deal to be fucked by their husbands in exchange for having security and het privilege. Many, if not most women, make a cold economic decision to marry men so they won’t live in extreme poverty. This form of legal prostitution used to be common knowledge until the Twentieth Century media bombarded women with the propaganda to marry for “love.” But I still hear women talk about marrying men simply to increase their standard of living. Women would be far less compelled to marry otherwise, which is why we can never expect true equal rights in patriarchy.

These days, males have had to learn some tricks to keep females entertained, but they still can’t love the way a female can – no matter how much “Lesbian” porn they watch.

I can remember making the choice to be a Lesbian when I was three – I didn’t need to know the word “Lesbian” to live my life as one, although most of us do hear the word “queer” while growing up.  In this era, when people are often told the outrageous idea that they choose to get cancer by having the wrong attitude, the mainstream as well as Gay media line is that we don’t have a choice about being Lesbian or Gay. The cult line is: “We hate being queer and would do anything to be normal like you, but we were born this way, so pity poor pathetic us and give us equal rights.” It’s as if the entire beginning of the Lesbian Feminist movement never happened. Yet, it’s obvious that we do make choices since most Lesbians once chose to be heterosexual. And many ex-het Lesbian Feminists used to make it clear that they chose to be Lesbian as a political decision.

So, if being het isn’t natural, why do so many women choose it?  Notice how many people will betray themselves in other ways when the alternative is to be unpopular, criticized, and ridiculed. There’s also the higher standard of living that males provide, but choosing to be intimate with men is like choosing death over life. What other group almost entirely chooses to be so intimately involved with their oppressor, even to the point of reproducing their oppressor? And then most women become heavily invested in the continuation of patriarchy, supporting males over females. When anti-Feminists say that women can be as cruel as men, they forget to notice that those are usually the women who’ve chosen to be dedicated to males – sometimes so much so that they will protect their rapist husband, boyfriend, or son over their victim daughter. Feminist arguments in defense of such women, saying how they are trapped and can’t leave their abusive men ignore that the same women would leave immediately if their husband/boyfriend brought home another woman to fuck.

Being het means being accepted by society, family, and strangers in a way that Lesbians are never fully accepted. With few exceptions, we are excluded from almost any media representation of love or relationships. Harassment and ridicule in schools is constant. I’ve known women who hated the thought of having children, do it in a desperate attempt to finally be accepted and loved by their Lesbian-hating families. Never underestimate the desire to be “normal,” and never underestimate the deep shame many feel for being Lesbians. That explains FTMs as well as all the unhappy het and bisexual women.

And then of course, most women have no idea of who Lesbians really are. Even many celibate Radical Feminists have become so disconnected from their hearts. When they hear or read “Lesbian,” they think of sex, rather than love. Their awareness of the heart connection that draws us to each other seems to be lost. When I asked an acquaintance if she was a Lesbian, she said she’d tried it when her ex-husband had once brought home another woman for a three-way. She didn’t like it, so no, she wasn’t a Lesbian. An actor who was asked if she’d ever tried being a Lesbian said that she had once, but when the other woman put on a dildo, it repulsed her. These examples have nothing to do with Lesbianism, but show how sordid, repulsive, male fantasies and male propaganda affect and control women.

The Myth of FTMs Being Butch

 What has been heart-breaking to so many Lesbians is the belief that we are losing Lesbians, and particularly Butches, to “becoming” men. But this is a myth. Most of the Lesbians I’ve seen “transitioning” are Fem, though they try hard to present as male. This isn’t as strange as it sounds since “femininity,” as we know it in patriarchy, is a male-defined, male-identified invention devised to confuse and weaken females. It’s unnatural and artificial, and, so, in that way, is not so different from identifying as an FTM.

Some women go through bizarre lengths with plastic surgery to look acceptable to male standards, while others just try to look male, but I believe it’s the flip side of the same coin and is rooted in male-worship and self-hatred. Della (Volcano) Grace the photographer/pornographer/trans-activist is an example. At first, she gets breast implants to fit in more with the male image of women, and then has them cut off and becomes a “man.”

I’ve also seen a “Radical Feminist” collaborative site, run by a het woman (there’s an extreme contradiction) which allows Butch-hating comments, such as the myth that FTMs are Butch, but which censors any attempt to say the truth. When a Butch member of the group posted my short article about FTMs, she was banned. Again, who does this Butch-hating, Lesbian-hating serve?

I believe that a lot of the insistence that it’s Butches transitioning is rooted in Butch-hatred – believing that Butches are more like men and unnatural anyway. The more het-identified and more Fem-identified a Lesbian is, the more likely she is to believe this. Meanwhile, Lesbian-identified, Lesbian-loving Lesbians, whether Butch or Fem, whether Never-het or ex-het, know that Butches are closer to what all females would be without patriarchal rules and indoctrination. Butches are the Lesbians who break most of the rules of what a “real” woman, a male-identified woman who obeys male orders, is supposed to be.

When Butches are treated as equals and with respect in Lesbian communities, then you know that is a strongly Lesbian-identified and Lesbian-loving community. (I’ve never seen this, but if you have, please tell me!)

In Loren Cameron’s book, “Body Alchemy,” the “before” photos of those who’ve become FTMs look Fem – not drag queen-style Fems, but certainly not Butch. Some of the YouTube videos of FTMs that I’ve seen also show extremely feminine-looking women before they begin to take testosterone. It’s interesting how similar they look to photos on internet sites by MTFs claiming to be Lesbian Butches – and I have never seen an MTF look remotely Butch. Many FTMs also show their shared culture with gay men and the genderqueer community by having picked up pretentious exaggerated gay male mannerisms.

Chaz Bono also looks clearly Fem in her earlier photos. (She seems to be a sad case of never feeling accepted as a Lesbian by her mother, and so I wonder how much that affected her decision to “transition.” Not to mention that her bisexual lover will now feel more comfortable as well.)

A new trend is occurring among FTMs: Many of the women who want to be men have been so brainwashed into worshipping males that they want to both be male and be sexual with men. Many of the early FTMs, such as “Patrick” Califia and Loren Cameron are now identifying as “gay men.” It’s also a myth that all FTMs are Lesbians since some are ex-het Lesbians who have gone back to men and are therefore actually het or bisexual women. Some of these women are doing a mind-fuck on gay men too, by identifying as gay men. A lot of FTMs are a new, trendy version of fag hags — het or bisexual women who want to be fucked by gay men (which I’ve heard that gay men describe as having a “bonus hole.”) The result has been some FTMs becoming pregnant and/or getting AIDS.

Re-writing our past is also hurting us. I know a Butch who was two years old in 1970, yet she angrily repeats the myth that Butches were badly treated in the Lesbian Feminist community in the Bay Area. It doesn’t matter to her that I was here and know it’s not true, and she wasn’t.

There was also a TV movie trilogy that included a story about how young Lesbian Feminists in the Seventies harassed one of their group for becoming lovers with a Butch. They looked silly and not like any Lesbian Feminists I ever saw, and the “Butch” was played by a feminine woman. I am Butch and I was a radical Lesbian Feminist from 1970 on. Who does re-writing our history hurt and who does it help? It’s propaganda against the most radical of Lesbians and reminds me of the lies spread about Lesbian Separatists. Of course, some newly out, ex-het Feminists were Butch-hating, but so are many anti-feminist Fems in the Butch/Fem role-playing community. I find their sexual objectification and sense of ownership of Butches and desire to use us more offensive. It actually reminds me of how men treat women — as if we belong to them.

It’s true that Lesbian Feminists mostly are against role playing, but that isn’t the same as being anti-Butch. I’m also against role-playing. (For me, identifying as Butch is like identifying my class background, and is about fighting role playing, which means resisting patriarchal orders to be feminine.)  What I saw in my old community was that Butches like Pat Parker and Judy Grahn and Willyce Kim were loved and respected, and that the now ridiculed and vilified tradition of wearing flannel shirts and jeans was wonderful support to all of us who had grown up being humiliated by being forced into wearing dresses and other revealing and uncomfortable feminine clothing by our families or even just to be allowed to go to school.

Notice how males in the media are allowed to look relaxed and natural, and how even the ugliest men are considered attractive, while women are expected to be in pain and look like caricatures in order to not be ridiculed.

It was such a relief being in a community where most Lesbians looked like Lesbians – unlike now where many Lesbians will say even about Dykey Fems, “She’s so ugly, she looks like a man.” Patriarchal influences had always been there, with male worshipping and admiration of male-created femininity, but now it began to be more open and bragged about. Instead of pride in looking like visible Dykes, more Lesbians reverted to passing as het. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that sado-masochism and porn began to be trendy. The first three books I know of that were about “Lesbian” sexuality were actually written by bisexuals, and were Lesbian-hating in their het-minded focus. Instead of being proud to be Lesbians, and looking and acting like a Lesbians, too many imitated and valued male and het women’s male ideas more. This supported the return to male-identified femininity, as well as directly leading to the trend of Lesbians wanting to become “men.”

Males’ obsession is to mark territory, whether by rape, by ownership of females or of other cultures, by war, and by genocide. Being a Lesbian is about love, loving another female deeply enough to risk the hatred and danger that comes from such a revolutionary act. Lesbians threaten patriarchy at its tedious, evil core. When Lesbians agree with male rules that we’re only about sex, it reveals how linked they are to male ways of thinking. And in spite of anti-Lesbian lies from the male-identified in the old Lesbian “sex wars,” true Lesbian love is far more exciting and passionate than the boring, disconnected sex which imitates hets and male objectification. The irony is that Lesbian “sex radicals” are in reality pathetically mainstream and submissive to male rules and restrictions. But the damage done to individual Lesbians and our communities is real.

We early Lesbian Feminists questioned and rejected the unnatural “feminine” role men set up for us where we’re expected to alter our voices, body size and posture, wear demeaning clothing that make us more vulnerable to harassment and attack, wear shoes that damage our feet and backs, and that prevent us from running or defending ourselves, mask our faces with lurid toxic chemicals, alter our hair texture and color with chemicals, burn, cut, or electrolysize our natural facial and body hair, etc. – all in order to be “normal” and “feminine.”  We understood that we were expected to give up our dignity in how we look and act because only men are really allowed to be their natural selves. (For those who think things are much better than in the past, picture a man in the role of a woman in a movie, using the same gestures, expressions, and movements, and wearing the same ridiculous shoes and restricting revealing clothes. Animated films for kids are even more revealing in pushing female stereotypes, which is training girls for their roles.  Animation of animals is probably the most extreme. Contrast those female-hating caricatures with how real wild animals act and it becomes clear just how false femininity is.)

Even many Lesbians believe these lies.  I’ve seen Lesbians too often describe such ugly, unnatural femininity as “beautiful” or “hot,” while describing natural females as “ugly” or “masculine.” Many females will do almost anything to not look naturally female (Lesbian) because that’s interpreted as being “male” and “masculine.”  Even some of the few who are openly against femininity still accept the propaganda by describing themselves and others as “masculine,” when, in actuality, being a Lesbian is as far from that as possible.  Looking like a Lesbian isn’t masculine – and it’s not feminine by patriarchal definition either. Both are male-invented terms. We are above and beyond both – unthinkable and free – unless we fall for the lies. Not enough Lesbians allow themselves to think past all the lies. Yet it’s not so hard.

The reclaiming of the worship of male-defined femininity and the accompanying role-playing and sado-masochism in the late Seventies did not feel at all liberating for many Lesbians. It felt like our precious community was being undermined and destroyed. Equally frustrating is hearing Fems from that era saying how oppressed they were by the pressure to look like Lesbians. They had the whole world supporting them in following male rules, but they wanted to impose their patriarchal values on our beleaguered communities.  And those values are so entrenched that many Lesbians think Lesbians who look like drag queens are more attractive than Lesbians who look like Dykes. Personally, I loved seeing all those short-haired Dykes in flannel shirts and jeans.  I still do.

Sometimes Lesbians will say, “Well, how does a Lesbian look anyway?”  It’s true that many Lesbians look no different from het women, but there is clearly a recognizable Lesbian look, which means looking more Butch and which means you’re more likely to get harassed on the street or be unable to get a job. But it’s also a way to identify a stranger as one of our own, and is the way we’ve been able to find each other through the ages and across all cultural lines. If we all looked like Lesbians, het could no longer pretend they don’t know any of us or aren’t aware of us.That would be easier on all of us to not be so singled out in Lesbian-hating ways. Every Lesbian who is out benefits all Lesbians, as a culture and individually.

If we refuse to believe anti-Lesbian and anti-Butch lies, then we’ll help make the world and our communities a safer place for females to be our natural selves, and we’ll make it easier for girls and adult females to not think that they have to torture their bodies, including “changing their sex,” in order to be accepted.  It also helps to know that being a Lesbian is a choice. I think that it’s the natural state of all females, but because of growing up with the tremendous patriarchal pressure to be het, many go against their nature – which means that it takes a lot of courage to choose to be a Lesbian. In spite of the oppression we get, and harassment and attacks, and in spite of not usually even having the support of our families and neighborhoods that other oppressed groups get growing up, I can’t imagine giving up how wonderful it is to be a Lesbian – not for any privilege in the world.

Saying we choose to be Lesbians gives us pride in ourselves and gives us the power to change mistakes. Instead of begging for acceptance or wanting to be something we’re not (whether it’s being het or trying to be male), we can know the revolutionary truth that being a Lesbian is the best choice of all.


 1. On the “Survivor” television show, macho “Boston Rob” referred to another man’s body showing in his revealing tight underwear as “disgusting.”

 2. Don’t assume this attempted destruction of Lesbian community is just coincidental.  Sometimes I forget how deep a threat we are to the mainstream culture and government which represents patriarchy in our immediate lives. What better way to wipe us out than to make the definition of Lesbian become meaningless and to support the introduction of our enemies into our last remaining spaces as a Trojan horse strategy? African American Lesbian friends have been the most vocal about saying to not forget that the government still has agents in our community. Some European-descent friends scoff, saying, “I don’t want to hear conspiracy theories,” but it’s not a theory – it is reality. African American Lesbians witnessed how the government worked to destroy the Black Panther Party and even christian civil rights organizations with the Cointel program. This is well-documented, and the damage continues, with drugs brought into African American communities. If you have any doubts, look it up. One website says “Cointel-Pro created or instigated several intra-and inter-group disruptions for the Black Panther Party.”

I remember a documentary showing interviews with several of Malcolm X’s bodyguards who were FBI agents. They were there when he was assassinated. Although they reported on him to the government, they were crying because they could not stop the assassins (sent by Louis Farrakhan and the Black Muslims). These agents loved Malcolm and didn’t want him to die, but it was amazing that he didn’t know several of his closest bodyguards were agents.

Some question, “Why would they bother with Lesbians?” Well, there were Lesbians in the Weather Underground, and the FBI went through another embarrassment when they had no idea who the SLA were when the SLA kidnapped Patty Hearst, I would think they’d rather not be caught like that again.  At least two SLA members had been in our Bay Area Lesbian community. A friend of mine had briefly been lovers with Camilla Hall. (Another good reason to not join male-run organizations – what a way to die – burned alive. Not to mention that since Patty Hearst says the men in the SLA raped her, they likely raped the other women also.)

Government agents in our Lesbian communities report back, but also work to disrupt any kind of strong movement we create.  Just one determined individual can do tremendous damage with lying. One publication taken over by the trans or genderqueer lobby also does tremendous damage. Laws are already being changed. We have almost nothing left that we once had as a revolutionary Lesbian Feminist movement.

About Bev Jo

I’ve been a Lesbian from my earliest memories and am proud to be a Lesbian. Lesbians are my people and my blood. My life’s work has defending Lesbians and our culture and existence against those who oppress us. Working-class, ex-catholic, mostly European-descent (with some First Nations, probably Shawnee, ancestry), from poverty class culture. I’m a Lifelong Lesbian, born near Cincinnati, Ohio in 1950. I became lovers with my first lover in 1968, became part of a Lesbian community in 1970, and became a Dyke Separatist in 1972. I helped create Radical Lesbian Feminist and Separatist community and worked on some of the earliest Lesbian Feminist projects, such as the Lesbian Feminist Conference in Berkeley in 1972, the newspaper “Dykes and Gorgons” in 1973, the women’s bookstore, Lesbian coffeehouse, and taught self defense to women and girls for ten years. I’ve been published in journals and anthologies, including “For Lesbians Only,” “Finding the Lesbians,” “Lesbian Friendships,” “Amazones d’Hier, Lesbiennes Aujourd’hui,” “Mehr als das Herz Gebrochen,” the Journal for Lesbian Studies, Lesbian Ethics, Sinister Wisdom, Trivia, and Rain and Thunder. With Linda Strega and Ruston, I co-wrote our book, “Dykes-Loving-Dykes: Dyke Separatist Politics for Lesbians Only” in 1990. Our book and my more recent articles have been updated at my blog https://bevjoradicallesbian.wordpress.com/ I’ve been disabled since 1981 with ME/CFIDS (Myalgic Encephalomyelitis) and MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity.) I love nature and plants and animals — and especially the animals who are feared and hated and killed by people who don’t even know them, just as Lesbians are. I’ve learned to love rats especially, who I do not consider inferior to humans. I’m a spiritual atheist, but I’ve found out that there is definitely life after death because a little rat returned from the dead for three days to comfort us. These hated little animals are so kind and loving, and willing to die for someone they love. I say, in our fight to protect the earth — distrust all “truths” we are taught by patriarchy. The true truth is often the opposite.
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88 Responses to “Transmen Are Still Women” — part 2 of The Pretenders — Defining Lesbians Out of Existence

  1. Jaye Jill says:

    “It was clearly a cold, calculating decision based on measuring privilege gained versus oppression lost.” Great line!


  2. FAB Libber / Dave the Squirrel says:

    Excellent post BevJo, with so many great points.

    I have one little niggle (in addition to the one I messaged you privately about):

    Feminist arguments in defense of such women, saying how they are trapped and can’t leave their abusive men ignore that the same women would leave immediately if their husband/boyfriend brought home another woman to fuck.

    Not really. Many are trapped by economic sanctions, and will actually put up with the dude fucking around because they don’t have a viable alternative. Economic sanctions, particularly those with children, are the things that keep them trapped. The key is to make young women realise that they will be trapped (or at the very least, tied to the dude for life) by having children – the dudes know this, why else do they want kids when they have little/no interest in kids, it keeps his domestic slave tethered to him.

    As an aside, I prefer the terms always-lesbian and later-lesbian to the never-het and ex-het. By removing ‘het’ from the expression, it takes males out of the picture entirely. Just my little bit of erasure. 😉


  3. Bev Jo says:

    I understand and agree about getting the word out of the way, but those are different experiences and I haven’t found an alternative. In spite of believing that all women would naturally be Lesbians if it wasn’t for patriarchy, some women don’t come out until much later in life and did not grow up in love with other girls and knowing that they did not fit in. (In fact, feeling all oppression that FTMs claim they suffered at girls.) So I say Lifelong Lesbian for those of us who always knew who we were, Butch for those who, in addition, were treated as other because we absolutely refused to take on any of the feminine mannerisms, ways of talking, moving, behaving, dressing, etc., and Never-het for those who weren’t het, but who may or may not have always felt they were Lesbians.

    I didn’t get your private message!

    I know that men want women trapped with kids, but I do know of so many women who just would not leave their men, even when they had Lesbians lining up to do their childcare (these “feminist” het women had incredible status in my community in the Seventies.) There are also many women who are actually supporting their husbands, including working class women. I don’t know of any women who left husbands when they found out their men were sexually assaulting their daughters, but many who did leave when they found out their men were fucking around. Even more so, the women who are supporting their men and/or who have independent incomes are likely to leave if the man brings a woman literally home (as opposed to just fucking around in supposed secret.) I do want to acknowledge that men do consciously as a group and as individuals want women trapped, but also I want to hold women accountable for choices they make. How could any woman not know what it all means? Enough grow up watching their mothers, other relatives, and neighbors in that situation. Certainly it’s all over the media about how men fuck around and how women then have to decide what to do, from TV movie plots to Maria Shriver. I believe it’s about the privilege. They do NOT want to lose their het privilege. If their man brings a woman home, they are humiliated in front of the neighborhood. But It’s more secret if he’s raping their daughter.


    • FAB Libber / Dave the Squirrel says:

      believing that all women would naturally be Lesbians if it wasn’t for patriarchy

      I believe this too, because the patriarchy propaganda machine works so hard to convince females that they are het, and should strive for het coupling (only to find themselves trapped and with less alternatives). Sure, some get out, but not all. It is a lifetime of brainwashing (grooming) that they also must overcome, some of those messages run so deeply. Childhood experiences (including CSA) have a profound effect on the adult, and this too goes for the het grooming.

      I fully support the always-lesbian pride (and butch pride), but the other side of always-lesbian pride is NOT het-woman or exhet-woman bashing. It can be difficult to find that line where legitimate criticism of choices ends, and bashing begins. I have seen this same phenomena playout and drive later-lesbians off the blogosphere, even if they have spent most of their lives living as lesbians, they were criticised for spending even just a little time as het – and frankly, given the cradle-to-grave het grooming going on, that is fully understandable. Later-lesbians do actually make up the majority of lesbians.

      I am saying whilst it is fine to raise criticisms about het or ex-het women, you need to do so with the realisation that you are not one, just like I am not a mother and have to exercise extreme caution about motherhood issues. The tone of your criticism above does come off as hetwoman-bashing (I think it is because it focuses on the women and their choices, rather than the systemic factors in place). We must be supportive of women, and try to help them see their situation for what it is. Het relationships are still on a continuum of abusive relationships, there is more to it than you realise, and most of them have a degree of Stockholm Syndrome going on. By all means, be critical of the het system, but don’t direct all your contempt for the women themselves. It is the system that sucks, and we need to get as many women as possible opting out and leaving het relationships.

      I apologise for the derail, and hope that it does not take away from what is a really excellent F2T-critical post.


      • jane hathaway says:

        Hi FAB/Dave, as an old ex-het Lesbian (not a Butch), and as someone who came out in my 40s (10-15 years ago), I want to take issue with your using the word “bashing” in this way. I experience lifelong Lesbians’ (and others’) talking about the strength and courage of their resistance, over their whole lives, as admirable, and inspiring, but never as bashing me.
        Until I (pretty recently) became aware of my own privilege as feminine and ex-het, and also as a mother, I was pretty clueless about the advantages I enjoy, AT THE EXPENSE OF ALWAYS-LESBIANS AND OF BUTCH LESBIANS. I want justice which means I want to know about the privilege and oppression within the Lesbian community. I don’t feel criticized at all–I feel lucky to understand and appreciate lifelong Lesbians and Butch Lesbians (and childless Lesbians, too).
        I guess the reason I don’t feel bashed in these conversations is that I have learned to “own” my ex-het and Fem privilege, in the same way I have “owned” my white privilege, for a much longer time, and never do I feel “bashed” by naming such privileges, and the flip-side oppressions that go along with them.
        I see nothing at all remotely “bashing” of any women in Bev Jo’s essay or comments.


  4. SheilaG says:

    Always Lesbian and Later Lesbian… I like those terms as well. And Bev Jo wow, you hit on the fact that women will dump the man for bringing the other woman home, because that is public humiliation of the woman. A man raping his daughter is private and unknown, and so the woman is more likely to stay… I’m paraphrasing you Bev. This creepily gets at what het women do do.
    The child abuse or the adultery?
    That said, although it is hard for me to believe because I’ve never had it, is that het privilege is quite a lure, quite an enticement. The big house, the man on your arm, the whole culture worships you. Just watch het women prancing around with men on arms at any event, and it can get sickening.
    But even with all of that… big house, huge boat, male earning boatloads of money (good pun huh 🙂
    even with all of that, I still wouldn’t want to be the sex slave of a man (het). I still think women are the best, and to have the enemy in the house just awful. Even in light of ALL THAT SOCial approval, it still seemed horrifying to me, even as a kid. And my family was not bad, abusive, alcoholic… it was just an ordinary family, but still het women were sex slaves, owned by men… to cowardly to not fall for the penis cool aid and all its trappings. Lesbian community would be so much stronger if we didn’t have to keep assimilating the ex-hets who come on in at any age…. meanwhile I wanted the advanced class of Lifelong lesbian to hang with, and there are none. Bev said she doesn’t know any either!


  5. It’s so good to have found you! We’re thin on the ground here…


  6. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you, Sheila and Phonaesthetica!

    Sheila, I really agree. I do know some Lifelong Lesbians, including my dear friends Katinka and Merritt, and others too. But not a lot.

    For me, it wasn’t about rejecting men as much as not noticing them. My being in love with other girls was so powerful a force. I could not feel that for males at all, ever. I don’t know how women can settle for so little, not to mention the danger, etc. But yes, privilege, bragging, fitting in. I remember, before any Lesbian Feminist support or awareness, my second lover and her boyfriend. She tolerated him for the privilege and to placate her parents. Her feelings for women were much stronger. But when they were in public, she was so cutesy and physical with him, to show off herself as a woman with her man. It was positively revolting, but what a response they got. And then we get criticized for being loving with lovers in public.


  7. KatieS says:

    BevJo, this is a great analysis of the way in which the F2T phenomenon works, the myth that F2T’s are butch, the reality that the stereotypes feminity and masculinity are two sides of the same coin and this is switching one to the other. The stereotype/myth is that since butches are labeled masculine, they must want M2T. The reality is that since butches are women without the culture role-playing they are least likely to be pulled into these performances.

    I always love and appreciate your perceptions about strong attractions to and love for women lifelong! This is strong and extremely powerful.

    I also appreciate the discussion of always-lesbian or later-lesbian, never-het or ex-het. In thinking this over neither seem completely accurate to me. I think of it in terms of heterosexism-compliance or het-compliance. This is because heterosexism is not natural to women, it is an add-on in the way that the masculinity-feminity dichotomy is. It is more awkward to say, but I think of it in terms of never-het-compliant or ex-het-compliant (as well as still-het-compliant).

    In this vein there can be never-het-compliant lesbians. I also think these lesbians were very, very clear in that they always knew they were not heterosexual, and so never-het fits them, too. Also, saying gold star lesbians fits, because these lesbians have been or can be golden and stars for many other women confused by heterosexism (het-compliant women). They have not gotten the appreciation/recognition rightly theirs. They have access to clarity about loving women not available to anyone who is het-compliant. Understanding the importance of the woman-identified-woman was a huge deal in setting a direction for feminism decades ago. Non-het lesbians have gotten a lot of unwarranted discrimination and heartbreak which het-compliant women have not experienced and have avoided by being het-compliant.

    The reason I think of it in terms of het-compliance is that I don’t think that later-lesbians were ever heterosexual. I do think they (we) were confused by heterosexism and behaved as if we were heterosexuals. Some women knew from a very early age that they would never be het-compliant even though everyone around them was. It was anathema to them. But some very young girls were also het-compliant from a very young age. I don’t know that they chose to do this, being too young to choose when they first became het-compliant. One good question would be what makes the difference? What is the mechanism for this? This is a practical question, and one SheilaG raised elsewhere. If we knew, perhaps we could change things radically. How do we help girls make choices that serve them, not misogynist and heterosexist culture? I don’t see this as a simple question, including things like Stockholm syndrome, personality differences, control of information, misinformation, seeking harm avoidance, logical thinking skills, etc.

    I do not know if all women are naturally lesbian or not. Yes, it seems that way to me, but since I’m an ex-het-compliant lesbian I don’t know for sure and don’t want to make assumptions about other women. What I do know for sure is that even if some women are heterosexual or bisexual, being compliant with misogynist and heterosexist culture is not a simple choice. It hurts them and it hurts all women. It is not ok.

    Thanks again for the perceptive post, bevjo and great comments from others.


    • ALesbian says:

      This post I agree with, because I was forced/brainwashed into having heterosexual relationships all the while I was crushing out on girls/women. I never married, I have a child from a heterosexual relationship. When I finally decided to give up all pretense of being heterosexual and came out, I was so relieved to at last be living a truthful life. I’ve been actively lesbian ever since. I was always a lesbian but not always practicing because of the brainwashing. And heterosexuality is still being shoved down everyone’s throat, it’s just a degree of when someone come out.

      It doesn’t matter how long has been a lesbian, just as one is one.


      • Bev Jo says:

        Well, it actually does matter, in a similar way to how it matters when a Lesbian joins our community who once had a lot of class privilege, but is now theoretically poor. It’s a cultural and experience difference. We all could be Lesbians from an early age, since that’s our natural state, and it’s terrible how girls are pressured to be het and to betray themselves, but still, there’s a difference in privilege, in having once been part of the het world and treated as “normal.” Unless Lesbians explore how having been het changes how they think and feel, including how they feel about lifelong Lesbians, then they are likely to bring heterosexism into our communities.


      • ALesbian says:

        Bev, I obviously don’t have experience with many ex-het women. All I know is myself, and I should have posted my response as only pertaining to myself. I never want to have anything to do with penises ever again. I didn’t do well in het world because I didn’t worship the penis appropriately enough and was always womyn-centric. Coming out was a big deal for me because I was at last free to be myself. I actually wish I had never lived the heterosexual brainwashing and have so much respect for lesbians who knew at an early age and never succumbed to the brainwashing.

        As to my last statement, I guess I give more benefit of the doubt to other women who lived in heterosexuality, and think that they must like like me. Obviously this was perception is wrong.

        But I don’t date bisexual women because the conversation ALWAYS comes around to men and sex with men, which is not a subject that I want to spend any time on. I’m guessing that this is what is experienced with some ex-het women. Maybe it’s still having to deal with men as fathers etc. My child’s father died when she was 3 and he never acknowledged her so it wasn’t part of my life and I didn’t have to continually not talk trash about someone just so the child(ren) could have a relationship with them. It just wasn’t a part of my experience, thank goodness. So I’ haven’t had males part of my personal life until my daughter married. My life is very womyn-cebtered adn that’s the way I ant it.


  8. KatieS says:

    Ok, I need to clean up my writing. In the previous post I said “being compliant with misogynist and heterosexist culture is not a simple choice. It hurts them and it hurts all women. It is not ok. ” What I meant was “being compliant with misogynist and heterosexist culture is not simply a choice that they can make in a vacuum. It hurts them in ways they may not understand and it hurts all women. It is not ok.”


  9. SheilaG says:

    Great post KatieS and Bev. I actually don’t really know what makes women so compliant and cowardly.
    It drives me nuts to constantly watch it in action. Just the fashion industry alone should provide a clue.
    I think the term Gold Star Lesbian came into vogue in that dreadful pornified lesbian sell out TV show The L-Word. I’d never heard of the term until I came on the blogs, and I always get brutally attacked for presenting the heroic voice of the never het, never had sex with men lesbian voice. My life is about the love of women, so it was not about hatred of men. It’s why het separatists have such trouble, because they are still attracted to men, but grow to hate them because of consciousness change, but then again it is not a choice about woman loving… Lesbians love women first and foremost, and that is our purpose.
    Coincidentally, lesbians who have been radicalized are the Amazon warriors who battle patriarchy head on.
    There is no celebration of never her lesbians or gold stars or lifelong lesbians. We don’t even have local or national groups that celebrate this rather rare breed. But I do feel that collectively, we might come up with insights into how we resisted patriarchy from the get go, how we refused to conform… the butch lesbian at a young age who just found feminine conformity revolting and horrifying. This came very naturally to me. Even seeing women wearing dangling earings drives me nuts! I had femine conformity or the outfits of slave clothing and minstrelry… make-up is the ultimate mask women who are afraid of powerful liberation wear.
    I’ll tell you, to express lesbian pride in any form, to celebrate never hetness as a badge of resistence, and a celebration of the love of women is hated out there even on radfem blogs. Hated I tell you.
    Glad you appreciate this a bit KatieS, because you’re a rare bird believe me!


  10. Bev Jo says:

    Thanks, Katie. I do remember seeing very young friends going the route to be het. And then my ex’s granddaughter (at ten years old) started to harass her about why she didn’t have a boyfriend. So even little girls can oppress Lesbians. For them it’s fitting in and some start policing adult women and other girls.

    I do like Goldstar too, though I hadn’t heard it until recently.

    I’m not sure what’s going on here, but posts that are approved are not showing up. I’m seeing them by email.

    The problem about saying no woman was/is really het is that it denies reality. It might not be natural to be het, and it’s terrible for women, as is posing for porn and being a masochist, but at the same time they get substantial privilege. It hurts them but hurts us worse. It reminds me too of the class-privileged Lesbians who want a segregated community with no poor Lesbians — they lose out, but at a certain point I don’t care. They have chosen to be our enemy. Some of us have been trying for over 42 years to support het women to come out and have continued to be oppressed by them. I’m not around a lot of het women, so what’s happened is that I’ve been oppressed by ex-het Lesbians in some very nasty and aggressive ways. And then there are the Lesbians who choose to go back to being het. So I do hold them accountable.

    But here I’m trying also to answer a post that hasn’t showed up.


  11. Bev Jo says:

    Does anyone have any suggestions? The names appear on the side for their posts, but they are not here!


  12. KatieS says:

    Bev Jo, sometimes they show up under other posts. This happens when someone hits “reply” They don’t show up at the bottom of the list in chronological order, they are buried in amongst the other posts. If you click on the person’s post, it will take you to it. This happened with Jane Hathaway’s excellent post, for instance. It’s easy to miss these posts because if there are a lot of comments they disappear from the side list quickly.

    I notice that some blogs have this feature and others don’t I’m not sure why since they are all in wordpress. Maybe there’s a way to turn it off if you don’t like it. Perhaps you could ask someone who does not have that feature on their blog. You can tell because each comment has a “reply” at the bottom if it is turned on for that particular blog. Otherwise there is only one area to reply at the very bottom. Hard to explain, but I hope that’s clear.

    This may not be the problem, but you can see if that’s it.


    • Bev Jo says:

      Thank you so much, Katie. I clicked on some names on the side and got them to appear, but not all. At least I have something to work with now! I just don’t want anyone left out.


  13. Bev Jo says:

    Okay, some of Sheila’s posts showed up on Part One.

    Yes, Sheila, I really agree. And thank you, Jane.

    Fab, there’s no “derailing.” We just discuss everything we need to discuss.

    in Chapter 3 of our book, we go into detail about ex-het Lesbians’ harassment of Never-het or Lifelong Lesbians, which I will post after I update and edit it. Of course, ex-het Lesbians do make up the vast majority of Lesbians, which I think explains a lot of the heterosexism and Lesbian-hatred in our communities.

    Certainly no one should be picked on for having been het. And I have never harassed or “bashed” ex-het friends, and, in fact, some of them have been even more aggressive in confronting heterosexist Lesbians than Lifelong Lesbians have. It’s interesting, though, about the accusation of “bashing.” I was invited to an fb group that seemed to present themselves as radical women, but are are the opposite. The one in control of the group announced that she had kicked out two members for “male-bashing.” I repeatedly asked who they were and what had they said, but was ignored. Meanwhile, the thread filled up with women saying how much they loved men and how wonderful men were, and how some women are as bad as the worst men. I haven’t seen “bashing” of ex-het Lesbians, but do regularly experience being harassed myself at events. A friend a few months ago, asked loudly to a group of us at a dance, “Wouldn’t you all love to have a big hard dick right now?” I said I’d rather eat dogshit, which I also don’t want. She knew about me, but the main harassment was towards her Lifelong Lesbian lover and she proceeded to say how she’s the only one who’s been inside her lover. It really was serious public humiliation. The rest of the Lesbians there were ex-het and didn’t say a word, except for her lover, who quietly said she didn’t like what was said.

    Unless you are very determined, you learn to not say anything at events when a Lesbian declares “We were all straight once.” I do answer, and then the harassment begins. I remember Margaret Sloan Hunter asking horrified, “But you must have wanted dick? Didn’t you ever want dick?” She was a founder of MS magazine and influential in the Lesbian community for years.

    When confronting privilege and oppression that is rarely talked about, it can appear to be “bashing.” I’ve seen heterosexual dominance be so taken for granted that it doesn’t seem to be noticed by most Lesbians, which is part of why we’ve written about it.

    What is “bashing” versus describing oppression? I think that the thing is, is that I am fed up with feeling treated as inferior among Lesbians for never having gotten het privilege. I’ve seen Lesbians take care of women far more than other Lesbians. I don’t think Stockholm Syndrome accounts for women choosing to be het more that does the privilege they get. I have seen so many Lesbians return to being het. When are they ever held accountable for betraying us? Don’t forget the many bisexual women who sell us out, like the first three writers of “Lesbian” sex books, who identified as Lesbians in order to make money for us and who did tremendous damage in pushing porn and sado-masochism in our communities.

    When the privilege is all in one direction, I don’t think we should be afraid to speak because we haven’t had that privilege. Almost no Lifelong Lesbian ever writes or talks about it anyway. Should we not criticize men, trannies, or classist people? We do criticize motherhood in our book because it does give women privilege. And when Lesbians began to produce 85% boys (I believe in an effort to fit in, be “normal,” be accepted by their families, and be fussed over), of course we wrote about it. But not many had the courage to or thought of how childcare would be with little girls outnumbered by boys in such extremes.

    By saying the truth about everything, more women and Lesbians are encouraged to improve their lives.

    But really, most women worship men and despise women. Most Lesbians worship het women more than Lesbians.


  14. KatieS says:

    Wow, that is really, really horrible, Bev Jo. I’m sorry to hear of that happening to you and to other never-het lesbians. Women, including ex-het lesbians, are oppressing one another with the idea of dicks. That’s women doing the job of male misogynists for them. Really, awful and disgusting.

    I have to say that when I see the accusations toward never-het lesbians of bashing ex-het lesbians or het-feminists, I am usually surprised. I say, “Am I missing something here?” I read through the post again and I still don’t see it.

    I hope that more and more radical feminists can begin to look at the issue of privilege in the kind of way that Jane Hathaway describes in her post above. Sometimes it is difficult because the specifics of privilege are initially invisible to those who have it. Perhaps the first step is to assume it’s there and try to see it and do something about it. I especially liked, and agree, for myself, with this statement of Jane’s. “I want justice which means I want to know about the privilege and oppression within the Lesbian community. I don’t feel criticized at all–I feel lucky to understand and appreciate lifelong Lesbians and Butch Lesbians (and childless Lesbians, too).

    I guess the reason I don’t feel bashed in these conversations is that I have learned to “own” my ex-het and Fem privilege, in the same way I have “owned” my white privilege, for a much longer time, and never do I feel “bashed” by naming such privileges, and the flip-side oppressions that go along with them.

    And I don’t see Bev Jo bashing anyone. Quite the reverse, I think she has a loving attitude toward that is very often conveyed. And she calls it like she sees it, which is a part of caring.


  15. Valerie M says:

    I also take issue with the word ‘bashing’ being used to describe a Butch Lesbian’s description of het behaviour.

    FAB, surely you realize that het women are a male-approved privileged class over Lesbians, and twicefold over Butches? Saying their criticism is ‘bashing’ is like saying feminists bash men or antiracists bash white people.


  16. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you so much, Katie and Val. I was so impressed with your article, Val, since I’d never seen anything like it from an ex-het and recently out Lesbian. It’s really so important to be seen.

    Yes, Jane, I really appreciate what you wrote too.

    I never want any Lesbian to feel badly and want our community open to all, but to have it equal and truly loving, we do have to challenge ways that all issues of privilege hurt those in a more oppressed position. That’s part of fighting patriarchy since the same patterns continue. It’s heartening to me that so many ex-het Lesbians are so strong and Lesbian-identified about this issue. I’m finding that even more among those recently out, and with such an extensive age range.


  17. SheilaG says:

    The term “bashing” is avoidance behavior. It’s what men say about any woman who dares to “criticize” male behavior. It is not synonymous with bashing. So the term is an act of silencing. I most certainly would never want to hear a black person ever say how much “they loved white people” if another black person was sick of racist behavior on the part of whites. Just as I don’t want to hear men called wonderful just because het women don’t want to face male supremacy and patriarchy.
    Oppressed classes do have a perfect right to be very critical and to rebel against their oppressors. If you are oppressed, and a privileged group tries to silence you using the word “male hating” or “male bashing” you know it is a power place, a silencing tactic etc.


  18. Lilly says:

    That was excellent! I think some day the trans trend will come to an end because all trends will fade away and society changes.


  19. FeistyAmazon says:

    I am ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTED and Chaz Bono has this in her documentary where she sits with a boyish little girl and ‘boy bonding’ where this little girl will have hormones introduced into her body at age 10 to stop from developing as female in puberty and once she reaches 16 will have opposite sex hormones introduced into her to change sex. I mean it’s bad enough that women of young legal age(18 plus) right and left are taking hormones and/or having their breasts removed or if not breast binding and hurting themselves, their lungs, their ribs and hearts in the process, but for the trans movement to go after ANY little girl or boy who rejects patriarchally forced on them femininity or masculinity, and wants to blend with either both genders toys/clothes, or be more unisex, or covets the opposite sex’s toys or clothes like I did with my brother’s stuff….to then extrapolate ‘they must be trans’ from there, REALLY REALLY DISGUSTS ME!

    Thanks for bringing up the part about how Iran is footing the bill for these surgeries, how patriarchal and woman hating and anti-homosexual/anti-lesbian a culture it is, and that the CURE for homosexuality is transsexuality! I think THAT is the ultimate message. Or in the case of the already feminine young women who don’t like their status, they then want to become ‘male’ to relieve the sexism and then go after gay males! It’s all gotten way too weird for me, and NEVER ADDRESSES the problems in the first place: namely sexism and homophobia/lesbophobia and not want to have imposed cultural femininity or masculinity forced upon us…I HATED being female when I was young, in fact it wasn’t till I came out that I REALLY LEARNED TO LOVE MYSELF AS A WOMON!
    This the other strong Dykes taught me, and especially one particular matriarchal Butch. THAT AS A BUTCH FEMALE/LIFELONG HARDCORE TOMBOY who rejected feminine roles and straitjacketing all my life, that I had a place in the Tribe of DykeAmazons…a place of honor, power and strength, like Joan of Arc, Sappho, the powerful ancient Amazons, Gertrude Stein and all the other cross dressing intellectual and artistic dykes of that era! Or those who disguised themselves as male for male privilege, fun, adventure, or to have the woman of their dreams, knowing as women they’d never have that privilege. But that didn’t mean they ‘wanted to be dudes’ only that they wanted the same privileges as men enjoyed, without the straitjacketing enforced on the female sex. THIS is what these young women and girls don’t get…that there IS another way to be, and that we should continue working hard so ALL WOMEN CAN BE FREE, AND PROUD IN THEIR BODIES/MINDS/SPIRITS, not shamed and chained and a condition to escape by hormones and surgeries!


  20. SheilaG says:

    I have never met ex-het women who ever think or feel about the impact being heterosexual has ever had on them. They just think they can suddenly come on in, and have the never het lesbians fawn all over them. Women who can’t be honest about their lesbians selves, and force the rest of us to deal with their “history” as traitors to women… it’s like het privilege never leaves them, and they don’t do the work to get what damage they might bring to lesbian communities that never once worshipped the penis, never once gave into het indoctrination. We were the original warriors, we never gave in, and I like to believe we just were more honest than the rest of the women out there. We NEVER sold out, and that needs to be widely celebrated. But instead, if we celebrate our lifetime commitment to lesbian nation, our never hetness our pure lesbian cause, we are attacked for this as well, by the women who were gutless, clueless, cowards.


  21. jane hathaway says:

    SheilaG, with your help, and Bev’s, some ex-het lesbians are thinking / feeling it. Yeah, let’s celebrate your strength & courage and sing it from the mountains!


  22. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you all for such strong posts! Yes, Sheila, I agree that those few of us rare Lesbians who stayed true to ourselves from being little girls have been ignored, said to not exist, criticized, bullied, name-called, taunted, etc. by the ex-het Lesbians who have dominated our communities since the early days of Lesbian Feminism. It’s a unique oppression, where we are a minority in the communities we helped to create and where those who once had yelled taunts at us for being “queer” when we were little, or who got us fired from jobs, or encouraged their men to attack us, now are “us”, in terms of identifying as Lesbians. I can’t think of another oppression like this, wher our oppressor now claims our identity completely. We talk about this is in our book and I will eventually post that chapter, updated — “Heterosexism Among Lesbians Is Lesbian-Hating.”

    I know that not all Lesbians were so cruel when het, but something was going on with them to deny their natural selves, and I’ve yet to know an ex-het who didn’t think of us as “other,” in her own fear that she too might be a “queer.” (I’m using “queer” in the old way, as the terrible taunt from being little, and not as a reclaimed identity that wipes out Lesbians.)

    But I do want to add that many radical ex-het Separatists (like Jane) and Lesbian Feminists and even apolitical good-hearted Lesbians are wonderful friends and allies. I don’t want any of them to feel badly or to feel insulted. I co-wrote our book with two, and others, like Val, do such good supportive work (like her article about Never-het Lesbians).

    I guess, for me, the important thing is that our experience be acknowledged as real and not denied. I hear ex-het Lesbians going on about how terrible it was for trannies, growing up and suffering from never feeling like they fit in (which is not at all true for any trannie I’ve ever known) — while I’ve rarely seen that care or concern talked or written about for Lifelong Lesbians. Instead, we are resented and called “privileged” or “lucky.” No luck involved — we chose who we are, as everyone does. And certainly not privileged to be treated as other, as a freak from being little girls.

    I don’t want any ex-het Lesbian to ever feel badly, but I don’t want us to either!


  23. SheilaG says:

    It really makes me wonder why so many lesbians are so threatened by the idea of lifelong lesbians, and why there isn’t a conscious celebration of those who managed by sheer force of choice to stay clear of heteronormative indoctrination. A group of lifelong lesbians is always a testament to the true force of lesbian existence, of girls so determined, so unwilling to become slaves to the penis and all that it stands for. There are those of us who remember all the girls who were so afraid of lesbians, cruel, hating attacking… het enemies from a very early age. Then of course there were many kind girls who did no such ugly things.
    We hear all kinds of things about how “I didn’t know” or in a fit of anger, I wonder how dumb can you be to not know your true self until the age of 58, or 45, or 72. What is so hard about saying, hey I wanted social approval, and was a complete social coward, I didn’t have the guts to be a lesbian, I didn’t believe women deserve uncompromised liberation from the prime enemy of all women, which is male phallocentrism? Why the evasion? And why the hatred of never het lesbians? Or never femm lesbians?
    Geez, if you want to see a true lesbian attrocity story..the new movie about Chele Wright, who came out recently, is a case in point. She’s a big country western music star…. never heard of her, never heard any of her songs… the movie made a big splash at Outfest in Los Angeles. It is butch hating in the extreme, self hating… and now the “gay” community lionizes this woman, and of course she is made into a big “LGBT” “leader” — but it was very clear in the movie that butch women were hated, that feminism itself was hated, and that this woman doesn’t have a clue. Any woman who uses the word “gay” for herself all the time should be a big warning bell. Male identified, lesbian hating, fembot, and this is who they make the movies about in our community. On a rant here, sorry…


  24. Alee says:

    I know this is a couple months late, but I’ve seen you around various other blogs that I read sometimes, and felt the need to comment. I know this was only one part of what you wrote, and maybe not really a significant one, but this really resonated with me: “Het brainwashing is also the norm. I saw my friends in high school working very hard to make themselves feel attracted to boys. It didn’t come naturally, like their attractions to girls did.”

    I won’t say that I’ve been a repressed lesbian my whole life, because I think that would be rewriting my history in order to fit into the propaganda of the mainstream LGBT and this gay gene shit, but this feels so true. I was generally pretty solitary, but all the friends I have, the people I wanted to be around and felt most comfortable with, were girls. Never felt comfortable around males, but since I didn’t see myself as being actively interested in girls in a sexual/romantic way, put myself in the straight category. But yeah, I’ve liked 3 dudes (and my experience with boys has really ended at that, something I‘m now weirdly proud of), and all of them I had to push myself to consider “in that way.” Nothing organic about it, but I felt something was wrong with me because I wasn’t actively interested in anyone, and there’s all this crap saying if you weren’t interested in having sex with anyone by high school (and if you‘re a girl, of course they mean boys), you’re defected. But I knew I was never gonna compromise myself for the sake of a guy, so I accepted I would be, along a couple likeminded friends, “missing out.”

    So yeah, at 20, I’ve decided to be a lesbian, as opposed to trying to force myself to look for that goddamned unicorn, the Exceptional Man, when loving girls is so much easier, rewarding, and honestly exciting. While I certainly have internalized mysoginy, the idea of lesbianism even when I saw myself as het never disgusted me, and I was always genuinely baffled by girls who were repulsed by it (how could any girl be?) – especially the ones who would then swoon at the idea of men together. Also, when you said something along the lines of “it’s as if lesbian feminism never happened” I almost laughed because I’ve literally written the exact same thing and plan on posting it on another blog. I wouldn’t be writing here if it wasn’t for lesbian feminism I mean, what is this amnesia around the “Woman Identified Woman”? And the iconic Audre Lorde? As I’ve seen written elsewhere, lesbian feminists across race and class made this hip queerness possible, yet lesbian is written off among a lot of queers, especially among the ones who aren‘t attached to any radical politics. I actually think the lumping of lesbian with gay was one of the worse things to happen to lesbian identity.

    Getting back to what you wrote (sorry for the derail about my life story, just so many things here clicked, and I got ecxited), I’ve also noticed that a lot of transmen, contrary to popular belief aren’t butch. I think a lot of this is related to modern white, middle class lesbian identity. I’ve noticed that those lesbians seem more connected to white middle class gay boys (even though they obviously are shown less concern by mainstream organizations) than with straight women, even of their own race/class. Like these lesbians and gay boys have a similar androgynous thing going on, in terms of demeanor, dress, hair style, piercing, etc. There also seems to be a real aversion to butchness in general, even though butch women paved the way for all lesbians. I’ve read that middle class white women have historically found butch and femme repulsive, and that must have something to do with the anti butch attitude today. Like I get the impression a lot of the younger white middle class lesbians find butch outdated. I’m not sure where I’m going with this, but maybe the fact that butch is so ridiculed, this is part of the reason why these women turn to transitioning and surgery? Like in their world, a lesbian can only deviate so much from her gender role before she is put in that dreaded butch group, and perhaps they instead opt for physical maleness? Especially since there seems to be such an attachment to gay males? I could be totally off here, but that’s been something I’ve wondered about.

    I really don’t see this problem with black lesbians, maybe in part because studs (who are like butch) haven’t been run out. I mean, there’s still an expectation of stud/femme, though there are variations and degrees allowed, like soft stud. And studs, while there’s no denying are up for the same abuses as white butch lesbians, are still integral to lesbian identity. Like the derision I see online by white lesbians who aren’t butch to white butches is so weird to me, considering studs are seen as so… appealing. Like online, on youtube for example, there’s all this stuff on how studs “turn out” straight girls, they’re the experts at converting straight girls. So it doesn’t seem that the lines between lesbians and straight women are considered as hard. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not like I’m saying there aren’t problems, or that the “no choice” argument doesn’t have hold among black lesbians too, it just doesn’t seem as fixed, from what I‘m seeing anyway.

    Anyways, sorry for the novel. I’ve just had a lot of ideas on the subject. I also have to say that I know even less about how ftm transitioning among black women, or any women of color than I do about white women, so I could be talking out my ass on this, especially as someone who isn‘t butch. But honestly, the divide between radical lesbians and mtf is not going anywhere as long as mainstream LBGT politics insists on defending itself on the idea that everything under its umbrella is ahistorical, cross cultural, and that absolutely NO ONE in LBGT is influenced by what’s going on around then. None of this is true. There’s also a strong aversion to the idea that unpleasant things might shape who we are. No mainstream activists want to hear that maybe women are lesbians in part because men are so damn awful to women, yet we’ve been told our whole lives to be with them. Or that transmen might exist because male privilege, as you’ve discussed, is so desirable. We have to acknowledge identities and ways of being are not less real because they may in part be formed by ugly things in the world – nothing happens in a vacuum. If these ideas can be undermined (god forbid you be a manhating dyke in patriarchy!), radical politics might take root among younger lesbians and women in general better than they do now.


  25. Bev Jo says:

    Yes, it’s terrible how our very recent Lesbian history has been forgotten.

    I agree that the ridicule of Butches would cause some to think they should “transition” or kill themselves. And that’s interesting that both Fems and Butches would go to such extremes rather than be Butch, which is so “dreaded,” as you said.

    I agree about seeing more support for Black Butches or Studs. I also see more radicalness and stronger Lesbian-identified politics among the Black Lesbians I know in this area. It’s more Euro-descent Lesbians who I’m seeing “transitioning” and who seem hopelessly liberal.

    There is so much criticism now of being “negative” and so much phony “create your own reality” that that does make it very hard for any Lesbians to talk about how past abuse from males, not to mention current, affects her. Recently, at a public Lesbian concert, a really repulsive leering het man insisted on dancing with a Lesbian, and so she did, even while pulling his hands off her. She just would not tell him no, even though she obviously didn’t want him groping her. I guess she didn’t want to be called a “man-hater,” yet I’m sure she would never have tolerated another woman doing that to her.

    If we just keep saying no, including to men being called “transwomen” or any other kind of women, and keep naming male crimes for what they are, then, yes, we could help radicalize more Lesbians.


  26. KatieS says:

    Alee said: “But honestly, the divide between radical lesbians and mtf is not going anywhere as long as mainstream LBGT politics insists on defending itself on the idea that everything under its umbrella is ahistorical, cross cultural, and that absolutely NO ONE in LBGT is influenced by what’s going on around then. None of this is true. There’s also a strong aversion to the idea that unpleasant things might shape who we are. No mainstream activists want to hear that maybe women are lesbians in part because men are so damn awful to women, yet we’ve been told our whole lives to be with them. Or that transmen might exist because male privilege, as you’ve discussed, is so desirable. We have to acknowledge identities and ways of being are not less real because they may in part be formed by ugly things in the world – nothing happens in a vacuum. If these ideas can be undermined (god forbid you be a manhating dyke in patriarchy!), radical politics might take root among younger lesbians and women in general better than they do now.

    So many of those with white privilege and class privilege have been told that they can escape “those ugly things in the world” if they just look the other way (“politely”). Looking away from reality, everything under it’s umbrella is ahistorical, cross cultural, and exists in a vacuum. This leaves them without an explanation, so they look to biological determinism. To challenge this is seen as being “impolite”. This shapes much of the LGBT movement, liberal feminism, etc.

    I want to see radical politics for lesbians/women take root among younger lesbians and women in general. I think that many of these younger lesbians and women end up being attracted to radical political causes that are not central to lesbians and women (the environment, marxism, etc) because these causes at least look at some of the “ugly things in the world.” They don’t want to politely look away. But primarily they are male-centric and anti-woman. Women’s energies are thus diverted from our own interests and bent to serve “radical” men.

    I much appreciated your long, great post, Alee. As usual, high level dialogue at your blog, Bev Jo.


    • Bev Jo says:

      It’s also become an embarrassment somehow to appear feminist. I met a young Lesbian who wrote her name partly as “womyn” and felt she had to explain it. Still, I do see radical Lesbian Feminists and Separatists in their twenties. There just needs to be more support shared. The way it is now, if someone says anything critical of men claiming our identity, they get slammed down.


  27. SheilaG says:

    What I have been doing that seems to be having a good effect, is working with other old dykes to create lesbian events, which young women then co-particate in. And, quite often, even most lesbians who are in their 40s have never spoken to an all lesbian group. So they have never felt the full lesbian attention that “mixed” groups create. We wasted an awful lot of time mixing with gay male groups, who never had our interest in mind. A complete waste of lesbian energy that I blame on the AIDS epidemic.
    We have to know that women are very weak willed at saying no, always willing to give sacrifically, but never to their own group. We want to save the world, save the whales, but we won’t say we want to save and contribute to each other. Now I’m not picking on whales here, I’m saying lesbian only cross-generation space is powerful, young women need to FEEL it. It is when we FEEL this that we know, this is what lesbian love FEELS like… a roomful of women who REALLY LISTEN. You won’t get this in a het context, a male context…. and I feel butch hatred comes out of fear…. on the other hand, if you are a proud butch, you will find most lesbians attracted to you. Be proud of who you are. That is the key.
    And girls do have to make themselves go with boys. This is not natural, and I’ve noticed that even het women seem to be so much happier with each other than around their husbands, who appear to be success objects to trot out.
    We will find that with a return to the all lesbian ideal, to the true choice to be a real butch, and to create as much lesbian space as possible, that things will change. And when we have a lesbian events or dances or what have you, there will be no need to “have” to dance with men, or “have” to even say NO. We will create a complete lesbian positive experience for everyone. I am talking this up again, I am stating that separatism is survival and power, and I am not compromising. I am proud to say, “I am only interested in lesbians, I do not want to do anything jointly with gay men, I am not interested in trans, and I want a lesbian world!” I put my cards on the table, and women are responding, they are seeing the truth! Because, even young professional lesbians have never had this! They have assimilated and do not know it. I believe the tide is turning, it’s turning at Michigan, it’s turning for old dykes, it’s turning for a younger generation of lesbians who know they are missing something powerful, and as much as they might diss butches (although no lesbians do this to me very often)—maybe because my butch look is too cute to diss 🙂 Who knows? But I am seeing this, I am helping other women to see this and feel it!
    And yes, lesbian is a choice, and any woman can choose it. Any woman, any time.


  28. Bev Jo says:

    You’re cute, Sheila? I want to see!

    I really agree — the more we act with pride, the more we will draw other Lesbians to our politics. I get in trouble a lot, but I do speak out and say what I feel. Some hostility, but also a lot of agreement. We know we are right, so why not say it? Of course it is all a choice. What we say explains all the contradictions. Thank you!


  29. KatieS says:

    I always figured that Sheila’s cute 😀


  30. Bev Jo says:

    Hmmm….maybe she’ll post a photo, or send us one? Sheila? Are you there?


  31. SheilaG says:

    Post a photo, on the internet?


  32. Pat says:

    Do any of you have fathers, brothers or nephews? Are all these men in your lives also “nasty cruel people who molest and sexually assault most girls and women, as well as torture and kill animals for fun?”
    I understand the need for discussing power dynamics in terms of groups and classes, but at the same time we must never forget the individual.
    Our struggle is just, but it will be received as merely hate mongering if it is not rooted in compassion and true dignity and respect for all human beings–women, men, everyone.


    • Bev Jo says:

      No, I don’t have a father, brother, or nephew. Why do you assume we must all have them? Do read what we wrote here about the “Crimes of Mankind.” It is not “hate mongering” to name what males do to females and to the earth. We are running out of time. Where is the love and concern for all the victims. I recently posted about a man who was trying to rape a raccoon (who injured his prick) and at a brunch with only a handful of other women heard of friends of one of the women who caught their gardener raping their dog, while another woman told us about the man found raping animals at the zoo where he worked. Obviously this is not unusual.

      So why the hate mongering of the very few Lesbians who dare to name male violence? Why so much continued support of males as if they don’t have an extensive history of rape and violence? And why support any woman who so hates herself and other women that she wants to become part of a group with such a history of violence?


      • jane hathaway says:

        Pat, I suffered abuse by a male relative, and almost all the females I know have been, too. My little brother who is universally loved and admired for being gentle and kind, used to pull the legs off of live grasshoppers when he was a child. As an adult, I once saw him kick my dog. My nephew is also admired in his community but as a child he was sadistic toward his younger siblings. Same for my son–he was sometimes a bully to his sisters. They didn’t treat him that way, though. My father didn’t like to see anyone suffer, at least in front of him, but he laughed about racism and sexism, and worked his whole life to promote the interests of the corporations who are destroying the earth–the petroleum and mining industries. So that’s my answer.


      • Pat says:

        It is right to name male violence, so that we can face it squarely. Rape, torture and murder will not end through silence. But, even in our struggle for justice, I still remember our common humanity, and it does not make me any less vigilant or any less forceful or passionate in my dedication to feminism, of which lesbians have always been at the vanguard, spearheading pivotal social change.
        Right now, in my mind’s eye, seeing the flashes of horror done to women, I know that I am fully committed to fighting against it, and I give my heart and soul to our cause. Nevertheless, I feel that hand that touches me softly on my shoulder, reminding me to remember to love and not to hate, reminding me of our common humanity.


  33. Sharon says:

    First, I’m sure I’m going to upset the transgender community, but I’m not interested in what transgender individuals think of me. I have never cared what they think of me, nor will I ever care. I’m only concerned about women, especially young women. Second, I’ll be sixty years old this month, and I feel compelled to clearly make my thoughts known. I do this for the benefit of future generations of young women. As to “transmen” , I feel as if they are lost and misguided females, or females with empty shells where a vibrant female heart used to reside. They are my lost sisters, and I certainly wish them no harm.

    Because I’ve been on this earth for over half a century, please allow me to describe in detail what I’ve observed over these many years. Compared to thirty years ago, I definitely have seen both an increase in number FTM transsexuals or “transmen”, and a glorification of all things trans related and queer. I’m not the only woman who has noticed this peculiar phenomenon. It has been described at great length by certain women in academia, and its presence is certainly felt within the lesbian community. A new found delight in experimenting with gender appears to have been unleashed. This glorification of transgender, queer, and gender queer slowly emerged at a time in history when feminism was waning. With the election of Ronald Reagan in the U.S. and Margaret Thatcher in the UK, neoliberalism let loose a rapacious form of capitalism upon the globe. During this time, labor unions were demolished, civil and human rights were rolled back, corporate polluters were allowed to plunder with wild abandon, and the U.S. and several other industrialized nations saw an accelerated transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy few. This was a reactionary time in which civil rights and feminist issues were openly mocked and seen as passé. Starting in the mid-1980s, there was a strong backlash against feminism, and especially lesbian feminism. To me, to clearly understand transmen, gender queer, and queer, we simply cannot separate it from the particular era in which it emerged. Sometimes we have to step back in time to see clearly where we have been and where we are going. In my opinion, feminism, especially lesbian feminism represented more of a threat to the free market gods of neoliberalism and globalization than transsexuals or queer theorists ever did. Without cheap labor, primarily women in low paying sweat shops in developing countries, globalization would quickly come to a halt. Of course, the religious right has always despised transgendered, but closeted, wealthy white men have always had their role playing fantasies, pornography, and S&M. Besides, there was a lot of money to be made in the exploding sex industry that emerged during feminism’s decline. In all this, we saw the cult of transsexuals and the queer theorists lauded as being new liberating revolutionaries. Indeed, in the universities, queer theorists hiding inside ivory towers developed elaborate, erudite sounding phrases to explain why gender itself is all an illusion. Queer theory required the destruction of the female collective conscience in order to thrive. People who unsure of who and what they are will fall prey to just about anything. The wise old crones and the old feminists perched on their nests high above it all, peered down on this grotesque pile of utter nonsense and squawked loudly. This battle is still being silently waged, and the wise old crones will fight to the bitter end.

    Twenty years ago, young women who used to be rebellious, free-spirited, non-conformist, rough and tumble tomboys were often butch lesbians, lesbians, or simply women who refused to accept frilly dresses, marriage, and traditional sex roles. Now, young women have the option of actually changing their very female self by altering the outside body, and the identity of being female. Today, any young girl uncomfortable or ashamed of her body, or deeply disturbed at the thought of being lesbian, or loving another woman in a female body, can go online and find numerous websites and blogs on how to “transition” from female to male. In my attempt to grasp this new found fascination with transgender, I have many questions to ask transmen in particular, and the transgender cult in general. Why are women’s bodies so repulsive that they must be altered? Many women who like to think of themselves as educated and highly enlightened can’t see the misogyny when it stares them directly in the face. Young women of this generation don’t feel any better about their female bodies than women did thirty years ago. This is so painfully evident to me that it’s frightening. While young women have a right to be told that their bodies are perfect in every way, and that they don’t need to be surgically or chemically altered, women are still uncomfortable in their own skin. Astute women are quick to point out the myriad of ways in which women can change their natural bodies through surgery, cosmetics, pills, supplements, and various other methods. This is the commercialization of women’s bodies for profit and they see it as such. For some reason, these same women completely ignore the fact that “transitioning” into a transman not only radically changes a woman’s appearance, it takes away forever the very identity of female. It completely shatters the concept of woman. No, I won’t let gender queer or trans cult off the hook so lightly. Instead of bowing down at the altar of a transgender cult that has difficulty believing women exist, I prefer to tell young women that being female and having a female body is a precious gift. In my opinion, it’s the epitome of misogyny to suggest to young women that the only way they can be successful and live productive lives is to change their sex. If this isn’t misogyny in its most blatant form, then I can’t possibly imagine what real misogyny would look like. It’s kind of like the father sitting his young daughter on his knee, looking her straight in the eyes, and saying, “I know you’re smart and good in sports, but I sure wish you were a boy.” Or, saying, “It’s too bad that you were born a girl.” Girls live dull and boring lives, and being a boy is so much more fun and exciting. Girls are silly, dumb, emotional, and easily upset. Boys are brave, strong, rambunctious, and smart. Moreover, when boys grow up, they usually are paid more than women. Men are explorers with well paid, exciting careers. In many countries throughout recorded history, male infants have been valued more than female infants. Indeed, female infants are so devalued that they are often aborted before they are even born, left to starve after birth, denied education or access to health care, or occasional drowned. Now, who wouldn’t want to be a boy? When I grow up, I want to be a boy! If I’m not fortunate to have been born a boy with all its accompanying status and privilege, then I’ll be a surgically altered, testosterone enhanced version of a male.

    In addition to the misogyny inherit in the bazaar, tortured way of thinking that the trans cult has us accept at face value, I am deeply disturbed at the use of male hormones by young women and the surgically altering of women’s bodies. Don’t transmen take large doses of testosterone? If so, what demented soul brainwashed these young women into thinking it could possibly be healthy? Besides the health risks such as liver abnormalities, acne, cardio-vascular concerns, and a long list of other health problems, transmen who take testosterone in large dosages definitely take on male characteristics such as increased muscle mass, lowering of the voice, hair growth similar to males, and enlarged clitorises. By the way, the lowering of the voice and the enlarged clitoris are permanent. In addition to the health risks for the user, women who take testosterone endanger the health of their fetus if they become pregnant while on testosterone. The FTM transsexual or “pregnant man” who became an overnight media star years ago had to stop taking male hormones while “he” was pregnant. Unfortunately, the “pregnant man”, or transman couldn’t nurse her baby because she had both her healthy breasts removed. I ask the reader to imagine a transman deliberately having both her healthy breasts removed, but still keeping her ovaries and uterus. Contrary to what the trans cult and associated gender queer theorists tell us, breasts are natural parts of the female anatomy. Before girls take male hormones and/or surgically alter their bodies to destroy the female appearance, or the female within, we need to carefully think what we are doing. It’s so strange how the transgender and gender queer communities repeatedly tell us we are being “transphobic” when we carefully scrutinize the potential harm that they pose to women.

    It’s time to reclaim our lost sisters who have been sacrificed on the altar of the trans cult. It’s never too late to embrace these women and bring them back into the fold.


  34. Pat says:

    Jane, I feel what you say. I’ve seen the great montrousity of which many men are guilty of, but not all men are monsters.


  35. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you, Jane, for explaining so clearly.

    Pat, it may be that not all men are monsters. There are some who I am very fond of. But sadly, almost all women, including Lesbians put men first and value them more than their victims. I believe it’s far more complicated than “Stockholm Syndrome,” where women line up to marry serial rapists and murderers on death row. Women are far more attentive to men’s “humanity” than men are to women. I do not believe we share a “common humanity.” There are fundamental, basic differences where males, including those not socialized to violence are far, far more likely to rape and murder than any female.

    Too often, it’s girls’ and women’s kindness and compassion, that cost us the moment’s hesitation, losing seconds needed to defend ourselves.

    It’s interesting that this discussion is happening in response to my post about how much some women hate themselves and us that they want to become our oppressors. It shouldn’t be that the rare few of us who dare to speak the unspeakable — about male crimes — be once again questioned about how can we do such a thing when women are mutilating themselves to not be women any longer. If any of us ever allow ourselves to see the war going on against all females, where most of us are casualties, then it’s like joining the enemy.

    Why have men once again become the focus when this post and blog are about women? Most women’s lives revolve around men as it is.

    So shouldn’t the focus here be on those women who want to be men’s lack of compassion and what it means for all of us — and that the trans cult in general is doing terrible damage to our Lesbian and women’s communities?


    • jane hathaway says:

      I just watched the director’s commentary on a new Iranian lesbian film, it’s called “Circumstance.” There is a scene in which one of the teenage lesbian lovers is forced to marry her lover’s sadistic older brother. When he learns how much the two girls love each other, he brutally rapes his bride. As soon as he finishes the rape, the girl turns to him, caresses his face, and starts making love to him. It was appalling and shocking, after the buildup of the love story. The director, a lesbian, commented that Shireen “recognized his humanity,” and the director twice said that men are as trapped within patriarchy as women are. I tell you, this just ruined what would have been a great film. It’s a derail and a lie. This male character hasn’t an iota of “humanity” and doesn’t deserve the forgiveness of either the character of Shireen or the director–who wrote the screenplay, too. Humanity my foot. Most men lack what we call humanity. So what if it’s not “all men?” It makes no difference and, as I said, it’s a derail to harp on it.


      • Pat says:

        Jane, it is very dangerous to confuse “most” with “all” when referring to any group of people. This is the kind of lethal error that engenders racism, zenophobia and other broad-stroked, emotional-numbing oversimplification of human social interactions.
        Not too long ago, blacks were treated as subhuman in the U.S. They were raped, whipped and slaughtered by whites; their families were torn apart, and they were forced to forget their native tongue and to hate their skin. In spite of all these horrors they suffered at the hands of whites, with great courage and determination to live free, they worked with each other and with few whites to eventually gain emancipation (on paper), civil rights (on paper), desegregation (on paper) and so on.
        It would have been a great setback to these legal gains (on paper) if blacks, because of the great horrors they experienced by whites, regarded “all” whites to be evil and not to be trusted.
        It is the history of white violence that engendered black separatist groups today, many of which consider all whites as evil. And considering the history of white violence, it may be an act of a warped form of sympathy to turn away and say nothing when I hear blacks speak in broad-strokes and in the “most” is “all’ language when referring to the evils done by whites.
        But I won’t sit back and say nothing. My humanity won’t let me. My experiences with good friends and activists, some of who happen to be white, won’t let me.
        I won’t sit back and say nothing.
        By no stretch of the English language is “most” equal to “all.”


        • jane hathaway says:

          Pat, why do you think I say “all” men? I never said “all.” Even though there ARE some males in the world who don’t abuse women, it doesn’t change the fact that MOST women are mistreated by MOST men. And a case could be made that to enable violence, or to do nothing about male violence, is in itself a violent act. As I asked before, so what if there are some “good” males and “good” white people in the world? White men & boys still oppress and benefit from white male privilege, while white women & girls oppress & benefit from racism, even if we don’t want to. Just as Black men & boys oppress & benefit from sexism, too. What I object to is your saying what I wrote is akin to people who commit genocide, and your continuing to DERAIL the conversation by piping up for “our shared humanity” with the oppressors. This blog, for me, is a place to form my politics, and not one of inclusiveness–the only place, really. Everywhere else I go I have to be with men or with women who prioritize men. As Sheila said, it’s unwelcome.


      • Lizzy Shaw says:

        That’s sounds so disgusting. I want to puke even if it is a movie. How could the director, a lesbian herself possibly think that that was a good idea? What crack is she smoking?


  36. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you so much. That is absolutely horrific. This hateful propaganda of accepting any brutality and sadism of men is constantly pushed onto women with the warning that we will become like the rapists/murderers if we don’t forgive them. This is part of what keeps women trapped. This is absolutely evil. It reminds me of the rally to support the 15 year old girl who had been gang-raped for hours outside her high school dance, as the boys and men raping her texted their friends to come join. A man speaking at the rally said the rapists were as much victims as the girl.

    How? Why? Why is this rarely said when men are the victims? Are the Nazis and Klan victims too? The rich slaveowners like Washington and Jefferson — who also with Jackson recommended and participated in the genocide of Indians. Are the Republicans and ruling class in the US who have committed so many atrocities here and in other countries “victims” too?


  37. Pat says:

    Women wishing to be men can be read as another type of internalization of misogynism, and as you argue in your article, it is certainly a way of avoiding being targed by misogynism–it’s a way of avoiding rape, sexual objectification, sexism, etc.
    All logic convinces me that this is must be the primary motivation. And while I agree that chiseling one’s teeth into fangs and donning a bushy fur coat does not make one a wolf, and likewise that a woman mutilating her body does not make her a man, it certainly amazes me that such crystal clear logic as this is being called transphobia, backwards and the like by many feminist and queer friends.


  38. Sharon says:

    Speaking of transmen, Chaz Bono confuses me..

    (1.) Her brief career as a musician was an utter failure. Ceremony was a short-lived rock band created by Chastity Bono, Cher’s daughter, in 1993. Ceremony released one album, Hang Out Your Poetry, in 1993. An old article from 1993 describes the band as follows:

    “Ceremony front-person Chastity Bono has inherited the most unfortunate nasal and epiglottal tics of both her parents, Sonny and Cher. Hopefully, she has also been endowed with their thick skin and tremendous drive. She’ll need ’em to rise above a band that sounds as if it would rather be auditioning for an episode of The Partridge Family. D” Entertainment Weekly 1993 (source: http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,20295180,00.html)

    Old videos and photographs during this time show a young Chastity with long, bleached blonde hair. To me, she looks cross between androgynous and femme.
    (2.) She came out as a lesbian in the mid-1990s and even wrote a book entitled, “Family Outing: A Guide to the Coming-Out Process for Gays, Lesbians, & Their Families”. In this book, there is no mention of transsexuals. As a self-identified lesbian, she was eager to give lesbians advice on how best to come out to their families. Hitting the talk show circuit, she described herself as a lesbian on Oprah.
    (3.) I’ve always sensed a great deal of sadness in Chastity or Chaz. She obviously is a woman with a lot of emotional baggage that was evident as far back as the mid-1990s. In 1994, her long-time girlfriend passed away. In 1998, Sonny Bono, her father, died in a skiing accident. Chastity then became addicted to prescription pills, taking so many she went into liver failure.
    In an interview about her prescription pain pill addiction, she states, “I’m always afraid when I know I have to take painkillers because that’s my drug of choice and there’s always a risk of a relapse. I used drugs for about 10 years. It started when my girlfriend was dying. It started with taking her pain pills, not ones that she needed; she had moved way on at this point… She died a month before my 25th birthday.” “When she died that f**ked me up for a long time… (I was) a full-blown junkie. I stayed in my house and took pills” (source: http://www.zimbio.com/Chaz+Bono/articles/xo04zegTUZK/Chaz+Bono+Thought+Faking+My+Own+Death)
    (4.) After failing at just about everything and recovering from liver failure from prescription drug abuse, she discovers what she describes as the transgender culture. In an interview with Oprah, Chaz says she had a moment of awakening while watching the movie Boys Don’t Cry.
    Chaz says, ” I think it kind of awoke our culture in a sense” Chaz went on to say, ” Probably two years after that was when I started to really figure this out and really examine it…I always had this idea that, ‘Sure, I wished I was a boy and felt more like a boy and all of that.’ But I wasn’t, so I would deal with it. And I for some reason thought there were other lesbians that felt that way and that was just part of that community. Then I started to realize, no, that isn’t what a lesbian is at all. That’s what being transgender is.”

    This interview was most disturbing for several reasons. First, in this interview, Chaz appears to view transgender as some sort of culture. What does Chaz mean by “our culture”? Second, although the transgender culture which Chaz alludes to might claim Tina Brandon as its own, there is no definitive proof that Tina Brandon was transgender. Tina Brandon could have been just a troubled butch lesbian.

    When Chaz identified as lesbian, she wrote a book in which she gives advice to women on how to come out as lesbian to their family. Now that she is transgender, she writes a book entitled, “Transition: The Story of How I Became a Man”. Is the reader starting to see a pattern of behavior emerge? Now that she is transgender, she is involved in support groups for transgender youth. Apparently, not everyone wants her advice:

    “Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie‘s 4½-year-old daughter Shiloh is known around the world for her tomboy style and rough and tough personality but, no one ever claimed she was actually transgender — until now …”I would love to talk to [Brad and Angelina] at some point,” Chaz, 42, tells E News. “To at least let them know we have this resource for them if they ever need it.” Did he just imply that Shiloh is a transgender! That’s taking it a bit too far, don’t you think? “ (source: http://www.hollywoodlife.com/2011/05/10/chaz-bono-calls-shiloh-transgender-brad-pitt-angelina-jolie)/

    I admit that I have mixed feelings about Chaz. She seems like a decent enough person, and in many ways she appears almost tender, sweet, and innocent. When I look at her, I sense she wouldn’t hurt even a tiny flea. I even want to pick her up and cuddle her. However, she has no credibility at all. When I say no credibility, I mean nothing of substance. I hate to say this, but here goes. Underneath her charming smile, she is an attention seeking media whore who grew up around the glitz and glamour of celebrity parents. Each time she comes out as first lesbian, then transgender, she has to appear on television to reveal how she has transformed her pitiful life. After making the talk show rounds, she writes books about her soul searching revelations. This is a woman who did this first as a lesbian and then as transgender. She appeared on Oprah first as a lesbian. Then, she appeared on Oprah later as transgender. It seems that Chaz has a habit of hitting the talk show circuit each time she comes to some deep realization about herself. After the talk shows, the books are released. So, she essentially has made her living by transitioning before the gawking eye of television cameras. Chaz is a deeply sad, shallow, and disturbed person who has no authentic sense of her own identity. She is a rudderless boat afloat in sea of tawdry media glitz and glamour. After carefully researching her past, we see a woman constantly changing, but never satisfied. Chaz makes me cringe.


  39. SheilaG says:

    I know that women are the center, the greatness of community. We have a tragic cult within our midst, where young women are mutilating their bodies…. all in the name of trans. It’s a huge horrifying issue that a lot of lesbians are dealing with. It is patriarchal self-hatred. We know what male violence is, no point in bothering with that beastial class of rapists, oppressors, and owners of most women on the planet.
    Lesbian nation has always been the vanguard, we have to suffer the stupidity of het women who keep on aiding and abetting the monsters… they keep “producing” future rapists. As long as women keep collaborating with the oppressor class, we really won’t have a women’s revolution. In war, this is called being a traitor. Women sell their bodies to men for trinkets. Lesbians refuse to do this, and the liberators, the women who claim freedom absolute are hated by the het women who consort with the monsters. Then the het system doesn’t work out that well for them, and they come sleazing into the lesbian community expecting us to wait on them hand and foot. Stop the collaboration with men, and we’ll all be free. Otherwise, you are simply collaborators.


  40. Bev Jo says:

    As I said in my article, no one close to Teena Brandon called her male or “transgender.” She was a Butch who was passing to survive. The trans cult appropriated her, as they have so many others.

    Gallus Mag, at GenderTrender did a brilliant post about Chaz Bono’s failed career and her questionable politics. I agree. Would she be famous at all if it wasn’t for her parents? I also think she’s still trying to get her Lesbian-hating mother to accept her. Like so many Lesbians claiming to be men, she’s Fem. (I don’t like the “androgynous” term, which leads right into trans territory, meaning “male/female.” It’s often used for Lesbians I consider dykey Fems, but not Butches.) (I also don’t think it’s a good idea to use the term “whore” the way that the misogynist media uses it.)

    I don’t feel mixed about Chaz. She used Lesbians and then has betrayed us. And she is especially dangerous to girls since now Lesbian-hating parents have and alternative being suggested to them if their daughters refuse to obey their rules to be “young ladies.”

    Anyway, Chaz is finally famous and loved, with much more privilege than before, which is what “transitioning” is all about for her. Yes, she’s pretty pathetic, but even worse, she’s harming Lesbians, women, and girls, by using her privileged to push the trans cult. Real girls and women will pay the price. She’s a reminder that it’s better to be anything than a Lesbian in patriarchy.


  41. SheilaG says:

    Go point about Chaz Bono. She used the lesbian community for all its worth. I think it’s time to set some political standards out there… there are benefits to lesbian loyalty, and I think there should be “rules of engagement” for the women who betray our cause. I think there should be rules of engagement for formerly het women waltzing on in, and wasting our valuable time with their “het values” “het sexuality”
    Think about it, a woman has been married to a man for 20 years, reaped the rewards of this socially, had sex with this man… the vio la she “becomes” a lesbian, bringing the het bedroom values to the lesbian world… drags along the make-up and het entitlement, and she is considered the equal to lesbian nationalists who were solid, never wavered, never conformed to het-dom. The Chaz Bonos of the world… only famous because of Sonny and Cher…. and still our community slobbers over them.
    Chaz has got to be one of the dumbest boxes of rocks on the planet. I’ve met her, and it was shocking all the stuff our community handed to her on a silver platter.

    Chaz has set back lesbian nation decades…. her example is going to cause parents to make their daughters take male drugs, to negate lesbian existence, to wipe out lesbian life as we know it.
    The trans cult is about the lie of false male privilege, false consciousness… erasing butch dukes and radical dykes from the picture. It’s serious women! More serious than brain dead ex-het male apologists could ever imagine. Just how bad is it going to have to get? WAKE UP!!!


  42. SheilaG says:

    White MEN raped, killed and tortured black people. White MEN lynched blacks. Name the agent! At no time in my life have I ever witnessed radical lesbian separatists ever doing anything like that. To compare the desire of women to have a lesbian life and world as equivalent to MALE hetero separatist movements is absurd Pat. Your analogies don’t hold water. How do you know that a man walking into a room isn’t a rapist? How do you know a man in a wheelchair can’t walk? What lesbian separatist do you know walk down the streets of a city terrorizing people? Now take a look at het boys, and what they do to girls.
    There are two types of boys… those who attack girls, and those who sit and watch. Those men who rake in privilege letting other men rape and terrorize and sell violent porn. That’s what men as a group do. I’m not interested in this man or that man. I’m interested in getting rid of male supremacy, and creating a world where women do not have to deal with men at all if they don’t want to… a world where women freely choose lives, not have men sexually colonize them in homes.
    Rape, lynching, slave plantation ownership…. nowhere in the world do women as a class do this to men, nowhere! But you sure stick up for men a lot don’t you? You come on this blog and have the nerve to lump WOMEN in with MALE criminal activity. My goddess, just whose side are you on? The male side!
    How dare you!!


    • Pat says:

      Sheila, you ask ‘Who’s side am I on?’ Well, if it isn’t obivious, because I don’t use fire-the-cannon language, I strongly advocate women’s rights, and as a lesbian myself, I am personally invested in putting forth positive understandings of lesbians’ lives and experiences in the public.
      So clearly you’ve misread and misinterpereted the analogy of the history of racism that I was relating to some of the dangerous “most” means “all” rhetoric in discussions of power dynamics between social classes and groups that I stated above.
      I did not ” lump WOMEN in with MALE criminal activity,” and I did not accuse lesbian separatist groups of lynching blacks and so on.
      So clearly understand that as passionately and as strongly as you feel for women’s rights, and as passionately and as strongly as many feminists outside this forum feel for women’s rights, it is very dangerous to polarize analyses of power dynamics amongst various classes or groups to the exclusion entirely of individual variation within those groups.
      In the history of white violence racism against blacks, black separatist groups emerged to protect and fight for the self-respect and freedom of blacks living in racist societies. Blacks have experienced great gains in dignity and self-respect as a result of black separatist groups, for which we are deeply grateful; however, one of the fundamental beliefs of some black separatist groups is the preaching of the innate evil of whites. Even the whites that did help in fighting against racism are treated as encroaching and weakening agents. There is a clear, uniformly polarized view of “all” whites as being only one way, in spite of the fact that some whites were especially critical to great gains in civil rights and social changes for blacks in the U.S.
      Needless to say, unifomly polarized treatment of power dynamics between classes and groups without properly addressing individual variation within those classes and groups can cost social movements gravely.
      There is no sense of “a dare” in saying this. It just needs to be said for all our sakes.


  43. SheilaG says:

    Pat you are not getting even what you are saying. The bottom line is this: male dominance and patriarchy is a global system. And yes, men are the enemy of women. If this isn’t obvious by now, you are seriously not paying attention to life in America. That said, I defend all women’s groups to stay away from men, to create women only space, to fight exclusively for women’s liberation… no compromise, no prevaricating, no quarter taken.
    What you argue is that it is bad to say that an entire group is bad. Blacks do argue that whites as a group are bad, and we know that everywhere white men go, they destroy millions of native peoples, we know that white men have enslaved and still do enslave non-whites worldwide. So you are saying, hey it’s ok now and then to let Mr. Charlie in the room, or let Mr. Charlie “help out” with black liberation, and for Thomas Clarence type blacks, that may work in the short term.
    But you say that men are ok, and they’re not. And that’s where I have a real problem with the appeasers, and my canon blasts are well aimed at women who come on this blog and defend men. Their actions are indefensible, their entire culture a disaster. And we will not have freedom as long as half the world’s population still tries to appease, placate and say “some men are good.” Well no, they aren’t and never have been. The strongest position is for women to stand our ground for women, plain and simple. We need to build more organizations for women not less, we need to create more lesbian territory not less, and you did point out that separatism is comparable to white supremacy, or that black nationalism for black people was bad. No it wasn’t, it was very effective. White compromising black groups did not ultimately push through “reforms” in America. We all know this by now.
    I’ve watched 40 years of women fighting the same battles again and again and again, and appeasing and justifying male behavior, which is what you are doing. So stop doing it. Stop it. You know you are doing it, you know you a dissing lesbians who put women as central and males as worthless, and you will keep on doing this because who knows why. Yes, you did compare women’s freedom to the KKK and you did say that separatism as a strategy doesn’t work. If it doesn’t work, how come radical lesbian separatists are the ones MOST attacked? How is it that lesbians have been messed with within LGBT? How is it that trans feel free to attack Michigan for over a decade while women like you sit around and let them do it?
    You don’t hide, you are comparing men and women. A male nationalist group creates rape and war, a female only force kills no one, but it does liberate women from the oppressor, and every man within a room is an oppressor and a distractor. Women on our own are powerful, we have a lot to organize for, we have a lot to overcome… compromise with men is a losing strategy that has never worked. So you are defending men and to do that here is well… suspect in my book…. very suspect indeed. Why are you doing it, when you know that women’s separatism has never killed anyone? Why even compare this to other groups that are male controled, whether it be NOA, Serbian Nationalists, NAZIS, the Masonic Lodges circa 1905, the catholic church…. you name it, the male element is what is at issue. Women’s nationalism and women only organizing does nothing to kill men, it does everything on earth to lift up women, to give women courage and leadership opportunities. So what’s the deal? You want to work with men, well go do it. But it doesn’t promote the liberation of women. It doesn’t significantly change what women have been forced to do for centuries, it doesn’t really do anything, it just appeases. You are an appeaser, just admit it. Stop the games.
    ” Not too long ago, blacks were treated as subhuman in the U.S. They were raped, whipped and slaughtered by whites”– Pat, just who are the whites? White men, name the agent. NAME THE AGENT. You are generalizing here that whites controled this system, well no, white men created this system. because of the great horrors they experienced by whites, regarded “all” whites to be evil and not to be trusted.


  44. SheilaG says:

    If you were battered and mistreated by whites, why would you want to trust white people? Why is that necessary at all? That’s the point you are missing Pat, completely missing. The underlying argument is that the oppressed have to deal with the oppressors. That this is a requirement of progress, but no it isn’t.
    The more lesbians caved to hetero social norms, the more women shied away from separatism, the worse it got. I see nothing wrong with saying I want a lesbian feminist world, I don’t want to work with men. And I have a right not to be with them as much as is humanly possible. What’s wrong with saying blacks might hate the white race, and not want to be with it? Why should the abused be forced to live with or be around the abusers? Why not have the wife stay with the abusive husband? That is what your are arguing ultimately. This will not free women, it will simply delute the power. So stop it. You know as well as I do that men are the problem, women are the solution. Hey, go work for LGBT, go side with the oppressors and argue their points… go on undermining at a separatist blog…. there are plenty of Pats in the world and very very few Bev Jos. I think she knows a thing or two. I think you don’t have the credentials to question her politics, in fact, you don’t even have the right here.


    • Pat says:

      As a black woman, I don’t hate whites and I don’t hate men. What I do hate is racism, heteronormativity, sexism and bigotry. And what I do hope for is for this discourse and voices of great proponents of women’s rights such as that of Bev Jo’s to reach the majority of Americans. To be honest, is this a special membership only forum? Well, whatever the case might be, I don’t have any hubristic feelings on any of our discussions. My primary wish is for these discussions to reach the homes of every American. These debates need to be happening on a much larger scale than between us here.


  45. SheilaG says:

    Thanks Jane for your comments. I think your point is well taken. There are almost no radical feminist blogs that prioritize radical lesbians. Almost none that honor separatism or the work of seps, and almost none that can keep the focus on lesbians first. I have no grandiose ideas of reaching the entire world, but do use Mary Daly as my guide: “If if I was the only one, I’d still be a radical feminist.” We can perhaps split a hair or two about “some” men vs. “all” men. I tend to think that it is a complete waste of time to engage the male pleasing, or male excusing behavior of many lesbians. We know we need more radical lesbian space as a given. We know that any time men are in the equation, women get left behind.
    What I’d like to know is why is this burning desire for women only/lesbian butch dyke affirming space used up in defense of the enemy, at the expense of butch dyke women reporting our experience, our struggles and our desire for NO COMPROMISE. There are plenty of women who will let the foxes in the hen house, but I would say, that males the world over have their freedom to create their worlds. Take a look at the so-called revolutions in the middle east, which have nothing to do with the freedom of women, much less the freedom of lesbians.
    Just what does a butch dyke true powerful female world look like?


  46. SheilaG says:

    Radical women were essential in my life. The radical message of you can be 100% woman centered and focused is a radical position. This power position frees the mind, it gets rid of patriarchal mindbindings, of which all women struggle with. What is liberating about Bev Jo, her books and blogs is she puts butch women front and center to the discussion of what women in freedom look and feel like.
    We need to seriously look at the women who resisted in every way the forced feminine system. It means every girl is force fed the hetero model, the male pleasing route to success. It means that teaching girls that they have real choices NOT TO LIVE WITH, be dependent on or consort with men is possible. It is possible to be the natural self of a girl… not the simpering, feminine pink politics. It is ok to say NO TO MEN. Absolutely. NO to rapists, no to bullies, just no. And it is ok to create a YES dyke environment in every way possible. The yes woman environment doesn’t deal with men, it deals with the full power of women loving other women. It’s why radical lesbian feminism is so hated, because it does pose a real threat to patriarchy. The trick of patriarchy is the occasional indulgense… some men are good. Well so what? As a lesbian, my greatest power is the unity of my butch radical women, and the very solid ground of what this is. So we need to get back to the basics of this, we need to make this known so that transtrending of girls and young women stops, and girls have the real option of loving girls, and being powerful, and being ok to completely reject a patriarchal system that forces girls to boy please, boy excuse and forget what girl only environments do. Perhaps our 19th century sisters had a much better idea of this. The come one come all attitude, which negates my existence, disses my complete resistence to male authority, well I hate that.


  47. SheilaG says:

    The radical lesbian feminist message is not universal, it does not have crowd appeal. It is there for the women who really want a male free life. It is there to not compromise female self. It honors the desire of a small group to have the freedom to say NO MEN EVER, and to stand firm in our desire for female freedom. As long as women kow tow to men, or say they are ok, it doesn’t service the interests of women worldwide who are prisoners of men. No oppressed group ever has to deal with its oppressor if it doesn’t want to. Being forced to do this is really shortchanging those of us who want a different discussion entirely.


  48. Sharon says:

    Have you been to this blog? I know it has a funny looking name, but The Dirt exists to help impressionable young women from falling victim to the gender queer, trans cult, and everything trans crowd. Don’t let the name fool you. The Dirt knows the dirt. She tells how FTMs are destroying their bodies with hormones and surgery.


  49. Bev Jo says:

    Sharon, I don’t read “Dirty White Boi” (why the trannie name?) since she unfriended me for daring to disagree with her in a facebutt discussion. She was used to lecturing women about what it means to be Butch and not used to Butches contradicting her politics — including her declaring how Butch-hating the Seventies Lesbian Feminist community used to be (even though she was barely born then and I was there and know the reality — which is that it was far more supportive and appreciative of Butches than what we’ve had since.)

    Lynn (Dirt) is very self-hating about being Butch and very Fem-worshipping — to the point where she declares Butches who love other Butches as being less Butch than those who are into Fems (which I consider role-playing.) She has also written anti-Separatist and anti-Feminist posts. She believes some women are just born het and that femininity is natural to women (I believe the opposite.) Is she saying anything that Gallus Mag or I or others haven’t already said?

    I also don’t agree about seeing F2Ts as such victims. Of course I want to support young women who are lured into the trans cult, but I also think of them as traitors who are selling other women out for more privilege. Some have said they just want “better jobs and more chicks” or that they don’t want to become “old women.” And of course some are just a strange version of fag hags who are obsessed with gay men.

    My focus and energy is on supporting other Lesbians and women to be able to say no to trans invading our space and culture. Lesbians and Radical Feminists are my priority — especially Lifelong Lesbians and Butches.


  50. Bev Jo says:

    Pat, I appreciate that you want my politics to reach many. It IS here at my blog, and many different kinds of women and some men also have felt supported by me. But what Sheila and Jane are saying — and I agree — is that we as Radical Lesbian Feminists and/or Separatists have almost nowhere else where it’s safe to say our politics and to share support. The trans cult has shown the extent to which, even among most Lesbians, men are worshipped beyond imagining and almost always given priority. When we try to have the smallest amount of female-only space, they go after us with rape, death and mutilation threats. And they are mostly succeeding.

    Considering that the entire world and almost all women and Lesbians put men first, why is it so upsetting to not do that here? It is Separatism that fueled Seventies Radical Lesbian Feminism, creating publications, books, bookstores, women’s centers, Lesbian centers, music, art, women’s festivals, and so much else. None of that would have happened if they had been done with men. Lesbians had tried before I found our movement in 1970, and they gave up because the men were so female-hating and Lesbian-hating. Then the demand of gay men for us to put them before ill and dying Lesbians did terrible damage to our movement, as did the rest of the GBTQuerty cooptation. Many Lesbians don’t even know that we once had strong and vibrant Lesbian communities. Our history is being re-written in front of us.

    It is the few of us who are keeping Separatism and Radical Lesbian Feminism alive who are keeping our movement going. So why try to stop us? The whole rest of the world is worshipping and prioritizing men — why is it so threatening for us not to?


  51. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you, Pat.
    And thank you to Sheila and Jane for all you’ve written.


  52. Sharon says:

    To Bev, a courageous lesbian:

    As to Dirt in dirtywhiteboi blog, I don’t know her, and I didn’t know her first name. If I knew her real first name, I wouldn’t use it online without permission. Although I don’t know her personally, judging by the amount of information she has collected, she has witnessed the destruction caused by the trans cult. For her willingness to testify as to nature of this atrocity, I am grateful. It’s possible to glean information from a woman without agreeing with everything she says. Since I’m a lesbian feminist, the thought of taking male hormones is completely foreign to me. I certainly agree with you when you say that the FTMs gain male status and privilege. Of course, they risk harming their own bodies, and damage lesbians close to them. Many FTMs have identified as lesbian, or have lived with lesbian partners. By permanently changing their exquisitely beautiful female bodies, they erase the identity of lesbian out of existence. To me, something deeply misogynistic and frightening is going on. It’s so terrifying that I instinctively find the urge to turn away. In 2003, Sheila Jeffreys stated, “In the twenty-first century the methods being used to get rid of lesbians are very much more cruel than we could have imagined thirty years ago.” I’m starting to believe her.

    Since I’ll be sixty years old this month, I feel compelled to speak my mind. I do this not my benefit, but for the benefit of young lesbians who are struggling with their identity in a misogynistic society in which women are constantly devalued. Because I’ve been on this earth for over half a century, I’ve noticed several things that have deeply disturbed me. Compared to when I came out as a lesbian in the 1970s, I definitely have seen both an increase in number FTM transsexuals or “transmen”, and a glorification of all things trans related and queer. I’m not the only lesbian who has noticed this peculiar phenomenon. It has been described at great length by certain women in academia, and its presence is certainly felt within the lesbian community. A new found delight in experimenting with gender appears to have been unleashed. This glorification of transgender, queer, and gender queer slowly emerged at a time in history when feminism was waning. With the election of Ronald Reagan in the U.S. and Margaret Thatcher in the UK, neoliberalism let loose a rapacious form of capitalism upon the globe. During this time, labor unions were demolished, civil and human rights were rolled back, corporate polluters were allowed to plunder with wild abandon, and the U.S. and several other industrialized nations saw an accelerated transfer of wealth from the middle class to the wealthy few. This was a reactionary time in which civil rights and feminist issues were openly mocked, ridiculed, and viewed as passé. Starting in the mid-1980s, there was a strong backlash against feminism, and especially lesbian feminism. By the 1990s, women’s history classes in colleges and universities were slowly replaced by “gender studies”, or the new darling of academia “queer studies”. In all honesty, I don’t see how it’s possible to completely separate FTM transsexuals, gender queer, and everything trans related from the slow decline of feminism and the vilification of lesbian feminists. I see these things as being intertwined and inseparable. One can’t exist without the other.

    Let’s carry out a little experiment. Goodle FTM or “female to male transsexual”. Now, notice all the pages of links that appear. In addition to groups for FTMs, some websites are from doctors, or people who claim to be responsible physicians. Some of these doctors are willing to remove healthy breast tissue from genetic females, or perform other barbaric procedures for the right price, and few questions asked. This is information is available to any young woman who goes online. As I type this, six-teen year old teenage girls can easily access this drivel. If women and lesbians are actually paying to have healthy breast tissue removed so they can have a masculine, manly looking chest, or taking male hormones that endanger their health, I can’t think of a more utterly repulsive example of internalized misogyny than this. To me, this is the very pinnacle of female hatred.

    Now, let’s step back in time. Historically, the male medical establishment has come up with some rather barbaric methods of curing or eradicating lesbians, as well as corralling marginalized populations of women seen as too rebellious, strong, or independent for their own good. For example, forced confinement in mental hospitals, shock treatments, aversion therapy, or the occasional lobotomy or cliterodectomy were used prior to the 1950s. In the year 2012, in many developing countries, some of these horrific practices are still carried out. With books such as “Our Bodies Ourselves” and a new feminist awareness in the 1970s, these brutal practices were all but banned in industrialized, western nations. What went terribly wrong, and how did we manage to veer so far off course? It’s as if we are so lost that we have actually reversed course and, indeed, are heading 180 degrees in the wrong direction. We went from “Our Bodies Ourselves” in the 1970s to various forms of body modification such as tattooing, cutting, piercing, and even branding. Along with what I describe as the body modification industry, an explosion of pornography and BDSM emerged in the mid-1980s in the wake of feminism’s decline. In the especially misogynistic practice of FTM “transitioning”, the female body is surgically altered to erase lesbian identity, and the female within. Where the lesbian and female used to reside, we create the male. If patriarchy could design the ultimate weapon against the most rebellious female, the lesbian, what would such a weapon look like? Patriarchy’s violence against women and lesbians is ancient and relentless. Each generation somehow thinks it’s unique, and can easily evade its grasp. They are sadly mistaken. I agree with Jeffreys in that we are experiencing an especially corrosive and virulent form of misogyny. For the sake of young lesbians, I want to strip back the covers and expose this monstrosity. Without flinching, I want to stare down this hideous beast. To conquer it, I first must understand it.

    I very much appreciate this blog, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to vent my righteous lesbian rage.


  53. Bev Jo says:

    Thanks, Sharon. I agree it’s good to get and share support from all potential allies, but it’s loaded for me when you name someone who I feel oppressed by and censored (Dirt) — or plagiarized by (as in the case of Sheila Jeffries, who got some of her politics from us and our book.) Because of her academic privilege, she’s in a position to reach more, and I’m glad about that, but quoting her to me as if I hadn’t been writing about the trans cult for years earlier is annoying to me. Yes, do link to or refer to books here that others might not know about.

    I’m not sure how to explain this since I don’t want to upset you, and I know we are allies and agree about so much, but I think your tone might be alienating more than me when you talk to us as if we don’t already know what you are saying. I’m sure you don’t mean it, but you do sound patronizing. Some of us have been working against these invasions of our communities for decades, with in-depth analysis. Much of what you’re saying is in my post here or in earlier writings, such as our book. I’ve been fighting the trans cult since 1972. I think you are just wanting to share support and know there are others who agree with you. There are a lot of us. It would be really good if you were able to find more support where you live too, which I know is not easy.

    In terms of understanding the male invasion of our communities, I try to keep it simple. Men have always wanted to invade Lesbian space. Their claiming Lesbian identity is a more bizarre, yet successful version of that. Wiping out “women’s studies” at universities and even in bookstores is terrible. Now, going after girls is truly evil and tragic.

    Reagan and Thatcher were not “neo-liberals,” though, but extremely right wing. I describe the right wing as thinly disguised nazis. In a way, except for the fact that as a movement they are literally killing people and trying to return many countries to being in the 19th Century where most people were slaves or indentured servants, the liberals are doing more internal destruction inside of formerly radical communities.

    Of course do know that righteous Lesbian rage is always welcomed here, and know that you are not alone.


  54. SheilaG says:

    We all need to realize that the trans invasion is absolutely NOT NEW! Bev wrote about it, Janice Raymond wrote about it in 1979. Nothing about it is new. The male medical machine’s purpose is to destroy lesbians by any means necessary. Technology advances to control and destroy women— with every rise in female revolutionary impulse, comes the male medical or religious model to push back.
    It is no accident that Freudianism came along as a response to the suffrage movement, the trans cult an effort to destroy lesbian feminism from within. The lesbian only spaces were growing in power. We had women’s presses producing and distributing radical material worldwide, and we had powerful lesbian organizing tools like Michigan. So we know all this. We also know that genderqueer was an attempt to destroy women’s studies. Substitute queer and you erase women, always the goal.
    This blog, and a few others stand firm in the desire to guard, enhance, support and continue radical lesbian feminism on radical lesbian terms.


  55. LS says:

    I know this post doesn’t have anything directly to do with transmen or any other subject, but I wanted to wish each and every one of you lovely and remarkable lesbians HAPPY WOMEN’S HISTORY MONTH. March is Women’s History month.

    Let’s take a few minutes to sit back, relax, and breathe in all the energy from countless lesbians, dykes, butches, crones, and witches that have all come before us. Their haunting spirits are still with us. Let this life giving, vibrant energy, soothingly consume us, heal our bodies and souls, bind our wounds, and seep into every cell in our bodies.

    Does anyone know if there is a Lesbian History Month? If not, perhaps this blog could have its own lesbian history month. Since its Bev’s blog, maybe she could come up with a date for our own Lesbian History Month. Does anyone think that this is a good idea?



  56. Bev Jo says:

    Thank you for that idea! I haven’t heard of a Lesbian History Month. How about Halloween, which is also the Witches’ New Year’s Eve? (Day after my birthday too, so I especially like that time.)


  57. LS says:

    Halloween sounds great. That would be a perfect Lesbian History Month. Unfortutately, most people don’t treat withches too well around Halloween…silly people.. During the Inquisition, it’s so sad that women were tortured and burned for being called witches. Could we also honor and celebrate the lives of the witches who were lost and persecuted?

    Yes, Halloween sounds great to me.



  58. SheilaG says:

    To me every day is both lesbian history month and lesbian present! But I like the idea of Octobor as lesbian herstory month, because includes the magic day of Halloween! And FYI, you can find a list of all the women’s names who were hanged in Salem in 1692, and they event have a monument to burned witches/wise women in Germany. It’s scary but it’s there! No scary in the Halloween sense but scary in that it is a memorial.


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  60. Lizzy Shaw says:

    Another good article! And yeah, this is nothing new. Men have always tried to invade lesbian’s/women’s spaces; it’s just that the bizarre method of claiming to have a magical identity has worked better than other methods.

    While I feel bad for women who have been duped by this, they have still betrayed lesbians/women. I wouldn’t say the same for those little girls who are being groomed by their Munchhausen’s-by-proxy parents for a lifetime of dangerous surgery and hormones though. That shit is beyond creepy. How is that not considered child abuse? Also, do you think that if Chaz was still an out and proud lesbian people would have been okay with her declaring Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt’s four-year-old daughter Shiloh to be a lesbian or implying that she might grow up to be one? I kind of doubt it. I also don’t really notice too many openly lesbian or gay celebrities preemptively declaring other people’s children to be homosexuals. It’s probably because it’s kind of inappropriate and also because they don’t want to give any fuel to the right-wing propaganda about recruiting children. In fact, I remember seeing a comedy special where the comedian was a lesbian. She and her partner/lover had a son who was 10 years old and she was talking about how he was going to be an ideal boyfriend to his future girlfriends and that he would say things like,”I really understand women because I have two moms.” So, she was preemptively declaring her son to be completely straight. I know that that is just one example, but any liberal discussions involving lesbians and gays being parents make a big deal out of “oh, they can’t turn the kid gay”. Yet, the trans cult recruits children all the time or tries to and it’s considered okay to influence an impressionable child/teenager to take hormones and get dangerous surgery.

    And those hormones are dangerous! Hell, testosterone is even dangerous for men! There are already lawsuits over those testosterone gels that they market towards insecure middle-aged men. If it’s that dangerous for males to take a male hormone, then it’s really bad for females. My dad is in the target age group for those drugs, and he said that if the testosterone fucks up the men taking it that badly then he doesn’t even want to imagine what it does to women who accidentally get exposed to it. Well, you just need to find some self-hating lesbians like Chaz Bono and you can see what it does.

    I am perfectly willing to believe the conspiracy theory about how this is a deliberate effort to undermine and destroy lesbians. The FBI did infiltrate a lot of the older radical movements. I wouldn’t be surprised if more and more right-wingers start getting the idea that dangerous surgery and hormones are the “cure” for homosexuality just like in Iran. And lesbians and gays will be complicit in our own oppression if we continue to let the trans and queer theory cult take over. If lesbians weren’t such a threat to patriarchy, we wouldn’t be as hated.

    I find it hard to believe that there is an innate gene that makes you trans when women transitioning are mostly lesbians and some admit to doing it to avoid rape and not be treated like crap, and when there are significantly more men transitioning then women and most of these men are heterosexual. Oh yeah, and the technology needed to do sex change operations, as well as synthetic hormones has only existed since the 20th century. Women hating their bodies isn’t anything new; the only difference is we now have cosmetic surgery and we have a crazy anti-feminist backlash promoting increasingly unrealistic beauty standards helped along by photoshop and an over-saturation of media in general. A minority of men who hate their bodies isn’t anything new either. (Although with the male trans I am more inclined to believe claims like that from MTTs who are homosexual and ashamed of it or MTTs who have experience some form of sexual abuse, as opposed to the autogynophiles. They love their dicks; if they didn’t they wouldn’t keep up with the “lady penis” bullshit.)

    Oh, and I thought I’d add something. I have been noticing an increase of heterosexual “transmen” lately. I have been involved in anime/manga online fan groups pretty much since I’ve started using the internet. Since I’d read/watch anything I could get my hands on and I have noticed an increasing number of heterosexual women who like yaoi (guy/guy) anime/manga wanting to transition! It’s really bizarre. Then again, most yaoi is actually written by women with the target audience of women (although, I do know some gay men and a couple heterosexual men who like it) and often has a kind of weird idealized version of male homosexuality, most often combined with conservative Japanese sex roles. (Not that I’m saying Americans are much better in that regard, because we’re clearly not.) I guess I could see how young heterosexual women, who don’t want to be lesbians but at the same time want to be as close to equal as possible with a romantic partner (although a lot of those anime/manga have some pretty dysfunctional relationships) might decide transitioning is a good idea if they hang out with the trans cult for too long. Plus, a lot of the women want to transition think that they will pass well as an androgynous guy since Japanese anime (yaoi or not) is full of androgynous characters. (Watch the Final Fantasy VII movie with your non-anime loving friends and take a drink every time one of your friends thinks a guy is a woman.) Of course, anime is not real life and these girls/women probably won’t be able to pass. I also doubt that the creators of these anime/manga series are thinking about the trans cult when doing their work, let alone a Western periphery demographic. I can’t say that I blame the authors for the idiotic ways some people have interpreted their works.

    Sorry if that was a tangent, but it’s something I noticed and wanted to bring up.


    • Bev Jo says:

      That’s all very interesting. Right down the line, pretending to be trans is a much more respected position for women and Lesbians to choose, with less harassment, more acceptance, and even praising. And yes, self-hating Lesbians are promoting the idea that it’s best for their kids to be het. What a thing to wish on a little girl….

      Yes, there have always been agents in our movement. In the Seventies, it was said 500 from the FBI in the Lesbian Feminist community. There are some “radfem” trolls who we are convinced are paid agents. Others probably just enjoy playing games.


      • Lizzy Shaw says:

        Oh yeah, I’ve noticed that even claiming to be trans results in worshipers. Although it seems that a lot of people on tumblr believe that “trans men” aka women have always had male privilege and have even more male privilege than actual dudes, and so claiming to be or actually being FTT won’t get you as many worshipers as claiming to be or actually being MTT (at least on that website). Because hetero white dudes in drag are the most oppressed ever (TM). Of course, this was also the hell-hole of a website where a guy can get away with raping his girlfriend if he’s trans and he claims she’s a racist. (No lie, when I was still active over there, this man admitted to it, wrote a blog post about it, and he has still a ton of handmaidens following him and avoiding terf blogs like he tells them to. It’s the marrying-an-incarcerated-serial-killer mentality.)

        It’s really all a bunch of the same male-worshiping garbage disguised with post-modernist rhetoric as being revolutionary and progressive.

        Wow, over 500 agents! That’s quite a lot. You’d think that the FBI would have better things to do like investigate all those unsolved serial murders and rapes. Now that you’ve brought it to my attention, I can think of a few people online in more radical circles who seemed a bit off.

        I can kind of get how lesbians and gays want to avoid being seen as pedophiles who recruit children, but I think preemptively saying “my son or daughter will clearly be 100% straight” sounds pretty stupid. It’s like, if the kid has two moms or two dads then they are aware that homosexuality is an option,


  61. KgSch says:

    I’ve seen the claims that any woman who fought against male oppression, including obvious lesbians, were really men and it is blatant re-writing history. It was very common for women to impersonate men when they had no rights of any kind. I guess all those women were really men and not courageous women wanted to live their lives outside of the restricted roles society demanded of them. You are one of the few people to acknowledge that Teena Brandon was a lesbian; many people go with the trans media lie that she was a FTT.

    It’s a bit rich for anyone defending the trans cult to claim that a lesbian, especially a butch lesbian who has always been a lesbian doesn’t know what it’s like to be oppressed by society and not fit in.

    I’ve also noticed that while a lot of FTTs may not be drag-queen levels of feminine, they are still feminine even when they are trying to pass as male. I’ve seen a lot of them saying they want to look “androgynous”. They might be able to pull that off for a while, but they will end up aging prematurely. The trans cult is a male-worshiping cult and femininity is a rule set about how men want women to look and behave. It makes sense that women who more closely obey male rules would end up following that cult.

    A lot of the “fag hags”, are transitioning. And since it’s all a choice, trying to be sexual with gay men puts FTTs in the “not a lesbian” category. I’ve seen a lot of FTT couples too. I think it’s because most het women aren’t going to want someone who’s not a real man and gay men want an actual man too. Have you heard of “girl fags” and “guy dykes”? It’s a group of creepy heterosexuals that fetishize lesbians and gay men, and claim that lesbians and gay men have a sexual fetish for ourselves. They claim they aren’t trans cult members, but five bucks says a lot of them will join up.

    I do believe that the government still has paid agents in radical communities. Some of the women claiming to be radical feminists are either regular trolls, or fishing for worshipers, or government agents. Plus, the president of all people congratulated Bruce Jenner on living out his sexual fetish and OSHA quietly published guidelines saying that women have to share the bathroom with males with a sexual fetish with no approval from anyone. I don’t care. I will call the police if some man comes into the bathroom with me. Might as well give them something socially responsible to do.


  62. Pingback: “Transgender” Simplified by Bev Jo | Working Class Radical Feminism by Bev Jo

  63. Pingback: “Transgender” Simplified by Bev Jo | Bev Jo — Radical Lesbian Feminist writing

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